Matt 24:34 Amen, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place.
Matt 10:23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to another. Amen, I say to you, you will not finish the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
Matt 26:64 Jesus said to him in reply, “You have said so.[a] But I tell you: From now on you will see ‘the Son of Man seated at the right hand of the Power’ and ‘coming on the clouds of heaven.’�
1Thes 4:15-17 Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Was Jesus and Paul wrong about the Second Coming?
Moderator: Moderators
Post #121
[Replying to Freethinker43]
"I'd argue that the " Second Coming" was never meant to be taken literally in the first place. "
I tend to agree.
We see Him first time in the written Word and the
second time in our heart and mind
when the things He said become alive to us.
"I'd argue that the " Second Coming" was never meant to be taken literally in the first place. "
I tend to agree.
We see Him first time in the written Word and the
second time in our heart and mind
when the things He said become alive to us.
Post #122
RESPONSE: Matthew 16:28 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)Monta wrote: [Replying to Freethinker43]
"I'd argue that the " Second Coming" was never meant to be taken literally in the first place. "
I tend to agree.
We see Him first time in the written Word and the
second time in our heart and mind
when the things He said become alive to us.
28 "Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.�
So are you telling us the plain meaning of the words used by Matthew, Mark, Luke, Paul, and James really didn’t mean what they said?
Do you think also that the Resurrection and Ascension accounts were “never meant to be taken literally in the first place�?
-
Freethinker43
- Student
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:18 pm
Post #123
Did He physically return before that generation passed away? No? Any testimony outside of the New Testament of the Resurrection and Ascension? No? Well, there you go. The " plain meaning" of certain words to some people might be an entirely different " plain meaning" to somebody else ( hence Christianity's multiple denominations).polonius.advice wrote:RESPONSE: Matthew 16:28 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)Monta wrote: [Replying to Freethinker43]
"I'd argue that the " Second Coming" was never meant to be taken literally in the first place. "
I tend to agree.
We see Him first time in the written Word and the
second time in our heart and mind
when the things He said become alive to us.
28 "Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.�
So are you telling us the plain meaning of the words used by Matthew, Mark, Luke, Paul, and James really didn’t mean what they said?
Do you think also that the Resurrection and Ascension accounts were “never meant to be taken literally in the first place�?
Post #124
Freethinker43 wrote:Did He physically return before that generation passed away? No? Any testimony outside of the New Testament of the Resurrection and Ascension? No? Well, there you go. The " plain meaning" of certain words to some people might be an entirely different " plain meaning" to somebody else ( hence Christianity's multiple denominations).polonius.advice wrote:RESPONSE: Matthew 16:28 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)Monta wrote: [Replying to Freethinker43]
"I'd argue that the " Second Coming" was never meant to be taken literally in the first place. "
I tend to agree.
We see Him first time in the written Word and the
second time in our heart and mind
when the things He said become alive to us.
28 "Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.�
So are you telling us the plain meaning of the words used by Matthew, Mark, Luke, Paul, and James really didn’t mean what they said?
Do you think also that the Resurrection and Ascension accounts were “never meant to be taken literally in the first place�?
RESPONSE: Thank you for your observation. The central question would be realistically speaking is the New Testament to be regarded as historical or fictional?
What does your explanation suggest is the answer?
-
Elijah John
- Savant
- Posts: 12235
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:23 pm
- Location: New England
- Has thanked: 11 times
- Been thanked: 16 times
Re: Was Jesus and Paul wrong about the Second Coming?
Post #125Checkpoint wrote:What the link presented was not an excuse but the logical working through of what Jesus said about "this generation".marco wrote:Checkpoint wrote:
Yes, Jesus did mean "this generation", not as we define it but as he does.
The link below explains this issue far better than I can.
http://www.mountain-retreat.org/faq/thi ... lled.shtml
This sounds like the excuse of a schoolboy. Of course we can take various meanings from the word "generation" but we then move into a statement that carries next to no meaning. The statement:
"Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom "
tells us all we need to know. It is saying the same but it makes it clear that this generation does mean the one containing people who are alive. Nor is it a question of this interpretation or that one being right: the only possible interpretation is that Jesus meant people in his audience would be alive at the second coming. If we are desperate enough we can look for people who are today about 2000 years old.
Too bad that you and others insist on taking the English meaning of "generation" and dismiss and trivialise a common Biblical usage of the term.
Except that supposed Biblical understanding of the word "generation" is refuted by Matthew 16.27-28, at least in this case. Instead of "generation" Jesus says "some standing here will not taste death" 'till Jesus returns. Presumably, all of Jesus listeners at the time died. And he has not come back yet.
So either the New Testament is wrong, in which case it is not infallible. Or Jesus was wrong, in which case he is not "God" as many claim that he is.
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-
Lioness777
- Student
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:36 pm
- Location: Ariel, Washington
Re: What number of the world's Jews live in the Promised Lan
Post #126[Replying to polonius.advice]
Good Morning Polonius....
The "promised land" you are correct, for God gave the Israelites all of that land, of which has now been 'stolen' from them leaving just the strip of land that we now know as Israel. The Bible was very specific on the land that the Jews were given, conquered, and lived in, as well as being driven out of.
But, when Christ returns He will, I am sure, be giving back all the land that belongs to the Jews. Albeit, when Christ comes back there will be some incredible rearranging of the landscape..of which is beyond imagination...
The Bible has more than proven itself very accurate on the statements that is written, by means of many findings of land, and goods that have been told about.
The City of David is now been touted as the area of which Jesus was talking about when He Prophesized that there wouldn't be a stone left standing. which means that the beloved 'western wall' was not the temple area but it was part of a Roman garrison The ruins of the real temple has been discovered just as Jesus predicted it would in Mat 24..no stone standing and it was the area which He was referring to the slaughter and destroying of the temple by the Romans in 70 ad...of which started the ''exodus' and heart break of the jews for over 2,000 years until they came 'home' to Israel. Of which God had made a promise that this would happen. If you were to read Deut. 4:27 and Deut 30:1-11 you will read of the scattering of the Jews all over because of their iniquity towards God, but then regathering back to the promised land...or land of "milk and Honey." Historically all that has been said has been proven by archeologists and historians...
Good Morning Polonius....
The "promised land" you are correct, for God gave the Israelites all of that land, of which has now been 'stolen' from them leaving just the strip of land that we now know as Israel. The Bible was very specific on the land that the Jews were given, conquered, and lived in, as well as being driven out of.
But, when Christ returns He will, I am sure, be giving back all the land that belongs to the Jews. Albeit, when Christ comes back there will be some incredible rearranging of the landscape..of which is beyond imagination...
The Bible has more than proven itself very accurate on the statements that is written, by means of many findings of land, and goods that have been told about.
The City of David is now been touted as the area of which Jesus was talking about when He Prophesized that there wouldn't be a stone left standing. which means that the beloved 'western wall' was not the temple area but it was part of a Roman garrison The ruins of the real temple has been discovered just as Jesus predicted it would in Mat 24..no stone standing and it was the area which He was referring to the slaughter and destroying of the temple by the Romans in 70 ad...of which started the ''exodus' and heart break of the jews for over 2,000 years until they came 'home' to Israel. Of which God had made a promise that this would happen. If you were to read Deut. 4:27 and Deut 30:1-11 you will read of the scattering of the Jews all over because of their iniquity towards God, but then regathering back to the promised land...or land of "milk and Honey." Historically all that has been said has been proven by archeologists and historians...
-
Freethinker43
- Student
- Posts: 31
- Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:18 pm
Post #127
Why should it be " all or nothing?" The New Testament is a wondrous mix of legends, sermons, history and literature all woven together to make a coherent narrative. One can very respectfully ( even reverently) regard the New Testament as a combination of all genres. I find great comfort in the spiritual resurrection described by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, as I do in his admonition in 1 Corinthians 14 to worship with one's mind as well as the spirit.polonius.advice wrote:Freethinker43 wrote:Did He physically return before that generation passed away? No? Any testimony outside of the New Testament of the Resurrection and Ascension? No? Well, there you go. The " plain meaning" of certain words to some people might be an entirely different " plain meaning" to somebody else ( hence Christianity's multiple denominations).polonius.advice wrote:RESPONSE: Matthew 16:28 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)Monta wrote: [Replying to Freethinker43]
"I'd argue that the " Second Coming" was never meant to be taken literally in the first place. "
I tend to agree.
We see Him first time in the written Word and the
second time in our heart and mind
when the things He said become alive to us.
28 "Truly I tell you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.�
So are you telling us the plain meaning of the words used by Matthew, Mark, Luke, Paul, and James really didn’t mean what they said?
Do you think also that the Resurrection and Ascension accounts were “never meant to be taken literally in the first place�?
RESPONSE: Thank you for your observation. The central question would be realistically speaking is the New Testament to be regarded as historical or fictional?
What does your explanation suggest is the answer?
You asked whether or not my explanation would consider the New Testament to be either fictional or historical, a dualistic paradigm that leaves me without a potential third option : " both and more." We are commanded by Jesus in the Gospels to love the Lord our God with all our hearts, minds, bodies and strength. We're also commanded to love our neighbors as ourselves. That is the Biblical litmus test that has been reiterated by the parables attributed to him. You help others in need, you're helping the Lord who exists through them and through him they exist. You withhold that help, you're denying the Lord.
Read in a certain way, the Bible can be a wondrous affirmation of deistic thought. God can be perceived through what he made. We should render gratitude to God. Our attitudes and actions will judge us in the here and now and our character is formed by those actions and attitudes. If the church is the Body of Christ, that is where we will most fully encounter Christ in community, denominational variances notwithstanding.
Post #128
Freethinker 43 asked:
RESPONSE: You left out the term "fiction."
But lets take a look at Paul's Corinthians 15 which was written in the 50's (Jesus was crucified in the early 30s).
1. So at the onset, we have to recognize that this was written about 30 years after the supposed fact,
2. Paul was a non-witness having only joined the Christian movement about 3 years after the "Resurrection."
3. He wrote to the Corinthians 817 mile away from Jerusalem who really wouldn't be expected to know what had occurred.
4. Prior to Paul's story, none of the 500 persons who Paul said saw the risen Christ either wrote anything about this wondrous occurrence nor did the thousands they would have told do so. These would have included Jews, Gentiles, Greeks, and Romans. But not a word!
5. If you look up a Greek copy of Paul 1 Corinthians, you will find he uses the word "appeared" relating to the sighting of Jesus.If you look up the actual translation in Strong's Lexicon you will find that the word Paul uses is used for "visions" not necessarily actual sightings. (Paul had lots of various visions himself which he describes in his epistles).
So, does the evidence support the view that this writing really described a resurrected Christ?
.Why should it be " all or nothing?" The New Testament is a wondrous mix of legends, sermons, history and literature all woven together to make a coherent narrative. One can very respectfully ( even reverently) regard the New Testament as a combination of all genres. I find great comfort in the spiritual resurrection described by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, as I do in his admonition in 1Corinthians 14 to worship with one's mind as well as the spirit.
RESPONSE: You left out the term "fiction."
But lets take a look at Paul's Corinthians 15 which was written in the 50's (Jesus was crucified in the early 30s).
1. So at the onset, we have to recognize that this was written about 30 years after the supposed fact,
2. Paul was a non-witness having only joined the Christian movement about 3 years after the "Resurrection."
3. He wrote to the Corinthians 817 mile away from Jerusalem who really wouldn't be expected to know what had occurred.
4. Prior to Paul's story, none of the 500 persons who Paul said saw the risen Christ either wrote anything about this wondrous occurrence nor did the thousands they would have told do so. These would have included Jews, Gentiles, Greeks, and Romans. But not a word!
5. If you look up a Greek copy of Paul 1 Corinthians, you will find he uses the word "appeared" relating to the sighting of Jesus.If you look up the actual translation in Strong's Lexicon you will find that the word Paul uses is used for "visions" not necessarily actual sightings. (Paul had lots of various visions himself which he describes in his epistles).
So, does the evidence support the view that this writing really described a resurrected Christ?
Re: What number of the world's Jews live in the Promised Lan
Post #129[Replying to post 126 by Lioness777]
Lioness777 claimed
Perhaps you would want to consult some books on history and archaeology:
http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/f/fi ... bible.html
“The Bible has more than proven itself very accurate on the statements that is written, by means of many findings of land, and goods that have been told about.�
I’m afraid not. Look it up. Don’t just believe everything you are told. We don't!
Lioness777 claimed
RESPONSE: God never gave the Hebrews any land. That is one of the myths found in the first seven books of the Bible written in 800 – 700 B.C.
Good Morning Polonius....
The "promised land" you are correct, for God gave the Israelites all of that land, of which has now been 'stolen' from them leaving just the strip of land that we now know as Israel. The Bible was very specific on the land that the Jews were given, conquered, and lived in, as well as being driven out of.
But, when Christ returns He will, I am sure, be giving back all the land that belongs to the Jews. Albeit, when Christ comes back there will be some incredible rearranging of the landscape..of which is beyond imagination...
The Bible has more than proven itself very accurate on the statements that is written, by means of many findings of land, and goods that have been told about.
Perhaps you would want to consult some books on history and archaeology:
http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/f/fi ... bible.html
“The Bible has more than proven itself very accurate on the statements that is written, by means of many findings of land, and goods that have been told about.�
I’m afraid not. Look it up. Don’t just believe everything you are told. We don't!
-
Lioness777
- Student
- Posts: 28
- Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:36 pm
- Location: Ariel, Washington
Post #130
[Replying to polonius.advice]
\"I\'d argue that the \" Second Coming\" was never meant to be taken literally in the first place. \"
I tend to agree.
We see Him first time in the written Word and the
second time in our heart and mind
when the things He said become alive to us.[/quote:70385e8589]
RESPONSE: Matthew 16:28 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
[b:70385e8589]28 \"Truly I tell you, [u:70385e8589]there are some standing here [/u:70385e8589]who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.�[/b:70385e8589]
So are you telling us the plain meaning of the words used by Matthew, Mark, Luke, Paul, and James really didn’t mean what they said?
Do you think also that the Resurrection and Ascension accounts were “never meant to be taken literally in the first place�?[/quote:70385e8589]
Did He physically return before that generation passed away? No? Any testimony outside of the New Testament of the Resurrection and Ascension? No? Well, there you go. The \" plain meaning\" of certain words to some people might be an entirely different \" plain meaning\" to somebody else ( hence Christianity\'s multiple denominations).[/quote:70385e8589]
RESPONSE: Thank you for your observation. The central question would be realistically speaking is the New Testament to be regarded as historical or fictional?
What does your explanation suggest is the answer?[/quote:70385e8589]
Why should it be \" all or nothing?\" The New Testament is a wondrous mix of legends, sermons, history and literature all woven together to make a coherent narrative. One can very respectfully ( even reverently) regard the New Testament as a combination of all genres. I find great comfort in the spiritual resurrection described by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, as I do in his admonition in 1 Corinthians 14 to worship with one\'s mind as well as the spirit.
You asked whether or not my explanation would consider the New Testament to be either fictional or historical, a dualistic paradigm that leaves me without a potential third option : \" both and more.\" We are commanded by Jesus in the Gospels to love the Lord our God with all our hearts, minds, bodies and strength. We\'re also commanded to love our neighbors as ourselves. That is the Biblical litmus test that has been reiterated by the parables attributed to him. You help others in need, you\'re helping the Lord who exists through them and through him they exist. You withhold that help, you\'re denying the Lord.
Read in a certain way, the Bible can be a wondrous affirmation of deistic thought. God can be perceived through what he made. We should render gratitude to God. Our attitudes and actions will judge us in the here and now and our character is formed by those actions and attitudes. If the church is the Body of Christ, that is where we will most fully encounter Christ in community, denominational variances notwithstanding.
There is a lot to ponder on all of your responses, but in the general context of what I have read on MOST ALL of your replies is that none of you have the true grasp of :
#1 the second coming
#2: Resurrection and Ascension
#3.the "generation" that shall not pass away.
#4. The N. T. as to be regarded as a fictional book.
So, in a nutshell my questions to you all is...do you really understand the difference of the Rapture, and then the second coming?
#2. the meaning of the Resurrection and that it solidified Jesus's promise that he defeated death, and what that means to believers and their redemption.
and then the Ascension of Jesus and the importance of what happened after he rose to heaven which involves the Holy Spirit?
#3. The 'Generation' that is mentioned in Mat 24:36 what that truly means prophetically? Do you understand this full verse? The lesson of the Fig Tree
(Mark 13:28-31; Luke 21:29-33)
32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
This word "generation" depicts now OUR generation. And the KEY to this word starts with Israel becoming a state in 1948...The generation is ours now..and it is dying out, for all those born in that time are up in the 70's and 80's ....for God has now opened up the ways and means of the Jews 'coming home' which He promised in Deut. 30:1-11...after scattering them hither and yon....if you know your history...
Now the statement of: "Our attitudes and actions will judge us in the here and now and our character is formed by those actions and attitudes." is true, but the first step to make sure our attitude and action is in compliance with what Jesus taught and wants us to do is the acceptance of Him as our Savior, and to ask Him into our lives of which then we will be given the HS to where we will then be taught how to behave in such a way to please Jesus and His father. As well as thru our Christian attitude, we will also be a testament to those that do not believe.
The Bible is not a book of fairy tales believe me...The passages are quite explicit on how, why and where, and what...it is of course YOUR CHOICE to accept Gods word.
\"I\'d argue that the \" Second Coming\" was never meant to be taken literally in the first place. \"
I tend to agree.
We see Him first time in the written Word and the
second time in our heart and mind
when the things He said become alive to us.[/quote:70385e8589]
RESPONSE: Matthew 16:28 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
[b:70385e8589]28 \"Truly I tell you, [u:70385e8589]there are some standing here [/u:70385e8589]who will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.�[/b:70385e8589]
So are you telling us the plain meaning of the words used by Matthew, Mark, Luke, Paul, and James really didn’t mean what they said?
Do you think also that the Resurrection and Ascension accounts were “never meant to be taken literally in the first place�?[/quote:70385e8589]
Did He physically return before that generation passed away? No? Any testimony outside of the New Testament of the Resurrection and Ascension? No? Well, there you go. The \" plain meaning\" of certain words to some people might be an entirely different \" plain meaning\" to somebody else ( hence Christianity\'s multiple denominations).[/quote:70385e8589]
RESPONSE: Thank you for your observation. The central question would be realistically speaking is the New Testament to be regarded as historical or fictional?
What does your explanation suggest is the answer?[/quote:70385e8589]
Why should it be \" all or nothing?\" The New Testament is a wondrous mix of legends, sermons, history and literature all woven together to make a coherent narrative. One can very respectfully ( even reverently) regard the New Testament as a combination of all genres. I find great comfort in the spiritual resurrection described by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15, as I do in his admonition in 1 Corinthians 14 to worship with one\'s mind as well as the spirit.
You asked whether or not my explanation would consider the New Testament to be either fictional or historical, a dualistic paradigm that leaves me without a potential third option : \" both and more.\" We are commanded by Jesus in the Gospels to love the Lord our God with all our hearts, minds, bodies and strength. We\'re also commanded to love our neighbors as ourselves. That is the Biblical litmus test that has been reiterated by the parables attributed to him. You help others in need, you\'re helping the Lord who exists through them and through him they exist. You withhold that help, you\'re denying the Lord.
Read in a certain way, the Bible can be a wondrous affirmation of deistic thought. God can be perceived through what he made. We should render gratitude to God. Our attitudes and actions will judge us in the here and now and our character is formed by those actions and attitudes. If the church is the Body of Christ, that is where we will most fully encounter Christ in community, denominational variances notwithstanding.
There is a lot to ponder on all of your responses, but in the general context of what I have read on MOST ALL of your replies is that none of you have the true grasp of :
#1 the second coming
#2: Resurrection and Ascension
#3.the "generation" that shall not pass away.
#4. The N. T. as to be regarded as a fictional book.
So, in a nutshell my questions to you all is...do you really understand the difference of the Rapture, and then the second coming?
#2. the meaning of the Resurrection and that it solidified Jesus's promise that he defeated death, and what that means to believers and their redemption.
and then the Ascension of Jesus and the importance of what happened after he rose to heaven which involves the Holy Spirit?
#3. The 'Generation' that is mentioned in Mat 24:36 what that truly means prophetically? Do you understand this full verse? The lesson of the Fig Tree
(Mark 13:28-31; Luke 21:29-33)
32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
This word "generation" depicts now OUR generation. And the KEY to this word starts with Israel becoming a state in 1948...The generation is ours now..and it is dying out, for all those born in that time are up in the 70's and 80's ....for God has now opened up the ways and means of the Jews 'coming home' which He promised in Deut. 30:1-11...after scattering them hither and yon....if you know your history...
Now the statement of: "Our attitudes and actions will judge us in the here and now and our character is formed by those actions and attitudes." is true, but the first step to make sure our attitude and action is in compliance with what Jesus taught and wants us to do is the acceptance of Him as our Savior, and to ask Him into our lives of which then we will be given the HS to where we will then be taught how to behave in such a way to please Jesus and His father. As well as thru our Christian attitude, we will also be a testament to those that do not believe.
The Bible is not a book of fairy tales believe me...The passages are quite explicit on how, why and where, and what...it is of course YOUR CHOICE to accept Gods word.
