Paradise on Earth

[onewithhim]

When I learned that the Bible speaks of a restored Garden of Eden and the restoration of mankind to the perfection and endless life that Adam forfeited, I was thrilled. Who doesn't want to keep living on this beautiful earth, with our loved ones, and being able to do all the things we love to do---endlessly?

If God said to you today, "When do you want to die?" would you say "now!!"? I don't think very many people would say that.

We CAN live forever here on Earth. The Bible tells us that we can.

Matthew 5:5
Psalm 37:9-11,29

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 117 by onewithhim]

Satan and Adam "mucked up" God's original purpose, but not permanently.

That does nothing to refute my interpretation of theology, where God's plan was mucked up. You'll have to note that I made no mention of permanently or impermanently.

Because of the fact of free will, Adam's disingenious choices were respected by God.

I don't agree that it was 'respected'. When I read Genesis, I read Adam and Eve told not to do something, they do it anyway, God comes back and he punishes them.
I don't see a respect for choices there. In my eyes 'respect of choice' means saying 'you can do this or you can do that, it's up to you, and I'm not going to do anything to interfere with your choice'.
Take political elections for instance. We have the freedom to choose candidates. The government promises to respect this choice. Does the government punish you if you choose the 'wrong' candidate? Does the government tell you 'don't choose this candidate'?

That decision of Adam would, of course, involve any children he may have. And it did. He became imperfect and destined to die, and so his children would be affected by that. It's called genetics, and heredity.

Here's the problem. You've now left the realm of theology and entered the domain of science. Tell me where, in the science of genetics, is any of this theology backed up?
Are there genes that we can point to, that we can determine came from Adam and Eve?

Well, the Scriptures indicate that the Jewish leaders were not upholding God's Laws; Jesus brought this out repeatedly. (E.g., see Matthew 23)

It appears here that you may have misunderstood my point.
In the Old Testament (which was upheld by Jews), there are quite a few verses that call for the upholding of all of God's laws. Jewish leaders who upheld these laws would have thought that they were doing God's will, and why wouldn't they think so? Their holy scriptures tell them that this is 'in fact' what God wants.
So along comes Jesus, and from the Jewish leader's point of view, he's breaking God's laws. He's a blasphemer and has to be punished.

[JehovahsWitness]

I wonder why God put in delays to his plans?

Any seeming delay was not "put in" by God. This implies that it was God that was responsible for them and that he deliberately created a delay, that the delay was part of his original will and purpose, which I don't believe was the case. So I can't really address your ponderings as it does not accurately reflect the point I was making.

Sorry,

JW

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 117 by onewithhim]

Satan and Adam "mucked up" God's original purpose, but not permanently.

That does nothing to refute my interpretation of theology, where God's plan was mucked up. You'll have to note that I made no mention of permanently or impermanently.

Because of the fact of free will, Adam's disingenious choices were respected by God.

I don't agree that it was 'respected'. When I read Genesis, I read Adam and Eve told not to do something, they do it anyway, God comes back and he punishes them.
I don't see a respect for choices there. In my eyes 'respect of choice' means saying 'you can do this or you can do that, it's up to you, and I'm not going to do anything to interfere with your choice'.
Take political elections for instance. We have the freedom to choose candidates. The government promises to respect this choice. Does the government punish you if you choose the 'wrong' candidate? Does the government tell you 'don't choose this candidate'?

That decision of Adam would, of course, involve any children he may have. And it did. He became imperfect and destined to die, and so his children would be affected by that. It's called genetics, and heredity.

Here's the problem. You've now left the realm of theology and entered the domain of science. Tell me where, in the science of genetics, is any of this theology backed up?
Are there genes that we can point to, that we can determine came from Adam and Eve?

Well, the Scriptures indicate that the Jewish leaders were not upholding God's Laws; Jesus brought this out repeatedly. (E.g., see Matthew 23)

It appears here that you may have misunderstood my point.
In the Old Testament (which was upheld by Jews), there are quite a few verses that call for the upholding of all of God's laws. Jewish leaders who upheld these laws would have thought that they were doing God's will, and why wouldn't they think so? Their holy scriptures tell them that this is 'in fact' what God wants.
So along comes Jesus, and from the Jewish leader's point of view, he's breaking God's laws. He's a blasphemer and has to be punished.

Taking points from the top:

(1) I wasn't trying to refute what you were saying. It is simply true that God's plan was mucked up, but I like to be encouraging and say something positive. Like it's not a permanent mucking up.

(2) You said that you don't think God was showing respect for Adam's decision, and that to show respect God should've said, "You can do this or you can do that, it's up to you, and I'm not going to do anything to interfere with your choice." Isn't that exactly what God said to Adam & Eve? It doesn't take much thought to figure out that of course that is what God communicated to the pair. They made their choice, and God didn't interfere. Then they had to suffer the consequences. He warned them.

(3) They had the choice of obeying God or of DISOBEYING God. That was the choice they had to make. They chose to disobey. They wanted to live independently from God. A somewhat amusing analogy: If a car could think and make choices, and its manufacturer told it that it could either obey the manual or not do what the manual said to do---it was its choice---and the car chose to throw away the instructions and do its own thing (put sand in its tank, let the air out of its tires, not put oil in the transmission, and so on), what is going to happen to that car? It has brought disaster onto itself. To listen to the manufacturer would have kept the car going just fine. The same with Adam. He chose to throw away the instructions by giving Jehovah the finger, so to speak. Adam reaped what he sowed.

(4) The Bible says every gene we have came from Adam and Eve. Science tells us how genes work and that if our parents have a quirk in their genes we will inherit it also. That's what happened to Adam's progeny. Adam started to die and his children inherited this malady from him. It's interesting to think about---Jehovah didn't cause every human ever born after Adam to die. Adam caused his offspring to die!

(5) Are we honoring the Bible here? If not, there's no point in discussing this. Jesus said plainly that the religious leaders were not following God's commands. I referred you to Matthew chapter 23, I believe, and it's very clear that the scribes and Pharisees were not shepherding the people spiritually. They were not teaching them what God actually wanted them to know. Jesus never broke a Law from God. He never claimed to be God or equal to God. The Jews just aimed a lot of trumped-up charges at him.


.[/b]

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 122 by JehovahsWitness]


[center]Genesis flood: A small delay in the plan.
Part Two: A quite contradictory statement[/center]

Any seeming delay was not "put in" by God. This implies that it was God that was responsible for them and that he deliberately created a delay, that the delay was part of his original will and purpose, which I don't believe was the case.

That statement represents a contradiction.
You might not have noticed, but that's one of the things I watch out for in here...

Contradictory statements don't make SENSE.

You seem to be saying that:

• 1. Things happen on earth that aren't at all in God's plan. ( Delays aren't God's fault or intention )
  2. But everything works according to God's plan.

Delays are part of the plan, or they are not part of the plan.
But you seem to say that they are both.

We don't want to violate the Law of Contradiction:

• "Law of noncontradiction
  
  In order for something to be contradictory, it must violate the law of noncontradiction. This law states that A cannot be both A (what it is) and non-A (what it is not) at the same time and in the same relationship. In other words, you have contradicted yourself if you affirm and deny the same statement. For example, if I say that the moon is made entirely of cheese but then also say that the moon is not made entirely of cheese, I have contradicted myself. "

http://www.theopedia.com/law-of-noncontradiction

___________

I have a few more objections to your comment above.

What are those objections, you ask?
I'm happy you asked:

____________


It also seems that you are saying that God's PLAN can work out no matter what happens along the way. So, it doesn't really MATTER what happens along the way..

God does some magic in the end and gets what he wants.
So... free will... evil, love, doesn't matter... delays, these are delays.

All the creating and drowning and killing and wars and sacrifice and resurrection and religions and debates with heathens.. mere delays along the way.

God maybe watches and toys with us, but none of that matters... or something.
What REALLY matters is the "END RESULT", which according to you, God gets what God wants.

We have nothing at ALL to say about it.

While we dilly dally and delay, we must obey, and perhaps pray.

OR ELSE.

So I can't really address your ponderings as it does not accurately reflect the point I was making.

Sorry,

Your apology is accepted.
I can't ask for what you cannot provide.

[JehovahsWitness]

Contradictory statements don't make SENSE.

You seem to be saying that:

• 1. Things happen on earth that aren't at all in God's plan. ( Delays aren't God's fault or intention )
  2. But everything works according to God's plan.

There is difference between a plan and a purpose. Those, (not yourself), , that don't know the difference between the two may well see contradictions where there is none

If you look carefully over my posts I never say that everything works according to God's plan, I say that God's purpose is certain to be fulfilled.

# QUESTION: What is the difference between a plan and a purpose?

A plan usually refers to an intended set of actions, to be carried out (usually in a particular order) to achieve a particular purpose. A purpose is the intended end result.

Does God have a plan or a purpose (or both)?

God has both plans and purposes. His plans may on occassion, be subject to change. The bible presents God's purpose for the earth and mankind; God's intentions were clear when he created Adam and Eve were clearly the earth to be filled with their descendants, that He himself planted a beautiful garden and placed them in it, implys that he wanted that earth to be a beautiful garden home for mankind. He made no provision for suffering, deprivation, war, disharmony or even for humans to die.

To illustrate: Imagine a man plans to drive from his home to visit a friend to spend the afternoon. He plots his drive on a map, marking out which roads he will take. Spending the afternoon with his friend is the "purpose" the plot on the map is "the plan" ie how he will achieve his purpose. Now what will happen if halfway there he finds that the main road to his friend's house is closed due to roadworks. He can, of course abandon his whole trip or he can plot another route; changing the "plan" but achieving the purpose.

The rebellion of Adam and Eve was clearly not part of God's plan, since he warned them not to take such actions. Their rebellion, following the lead of the rebellious angel that came to be known as Satan the Devil, meant that if God did plan for things to go smoothly, other elements came into play that meant that there would have to be a "change of plan". In other words, circumstances demanded that provisions w be made for Adams children (ie the human race) so they would be given a chance to make better choices than their (our) parents Adam and Eve. So there was a change of "plan" but no change of "purpose".


God could have abandoned his original purpose. He could have wiped the human family off the map or (as some religions suggest) said, "Okay forget the earth, you'all come up and live here in heaven with me instead".. But that would be admitting failure, it would be a "defeat"... It would mean that God cannot be trusted to achieve what he has promised to do, and that is contrary to what the biblical God stands for.

So God is flexible and fully able to change what he plans to do in any given circumstance in order to eventually achieve his aims.

CONCLUSION There was no contradiction in what I said or in what I implied. God's purposes are always, without exception guaranteed to be achieved. Certain details of how that will come to pass may be changed, "delayed" or even abandoned completely depending on the circumstances as they develop.


What is the difference between a plan and a purpose? [this post]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 91#p836491

Go to other posts related to...

LIFE, HUMAN SUFFERING and ...THE PURPOSE OF LIFE

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 125 by JehovahsWitness]





[center]

Words.. always debates come to how we define words.. so very tiring, really.
Part One[/center]

There is difference between a plan and a purpose. Those, (not yourself*), , that don't know the difference between the two may well see contradictions where there is none

Please explain the difference between "a plan" and "a purpose".

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 122 by JehovahsWitness]


[center]Genesis flood: A small delay in the plan.
Part Two: A quite contradictory statement[/center]

Any seeming delay was not "put in" by God. This implies that it was God that was responsible for them and that he deliberately created a delay, that the delay was part of his original will and purpose, which I don't believe was the case.

That statement represents a contradiction.
You might not have noticed, but that's one of the things I watch out for in here...

Contradictory statements don't make SENSE.

You seem to be saying that:

• 1. Things happen on earth that aren't at all in God's plan. ( Delays aren't God's fault or intention )
  2. But everything works according to God's plan.

I would not say that "everything works according to God's plans." He has an over-all plan or purpose (which will come about, no matter what), but not everything that happens is due to His artifice. In other words, He has guaranteed that ultimately this planet will actually BE the planet he intended it to be, and mankind will live on it forever, the way he purposed it to be in the beginning, but everything that happens in between his direct actions (first, the creation, and second, the redemption of mankind and the establishment of God's own government) is not necessarily of Jehovah's doing. There are many things he ALLOWS, but only for a time. Whatever happens, Jehovah's plan will come to fruition in the end.


.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 125 by JehovahsWitness]

It would mean that God cannot be trusted to achieve what he has promised to do, and that is contrary to what the biblical God stands for.

I get that regardless. Apparently, if I'm to go by the Bible and what you're saying, God's original purpose didn't have any provisions for what a talking snake might do, or that Adam and Eve might be tempted to eat the fruit of a tree he deliberately places smack dab in the middle of the garden and then walks off (seriously, the Eden story smacks of reverse psychology to me).

So God is flexible and fully able to change what he plans to do in any given circumstance in order to eventually achieve his aims.

Which is a quality I look for in a leader who is not omniscient and/or omnipotent. An entity who supposedly has those two traits doesn't need to be flexible, because...why would he need to be?

[onewithhim]

Rikuoamero: Do you have any comment for Post #123?



.

[marco]

God has both plans and purposes. His plans may on occassion, be subject to change. The bible presents God's purpose for the earth and mankind; God's intentions were clear when he created Adam and Eve were clearly the earth to be filled with their descendants, that He himself planted a beautiful garden and placed them in it, implys that he wanted that earth to be a beautiful garden home for mankind. He made no provision for suffering, deprivation, war, disharmony or even for humans to die.

This is pure speculation on the motivation of God, even written in the present tense: "his plans may on occasion be subject to change." It is one thing to interpret the Bible; quite another to presume to speak for God.

The rebellion of Adam and Eve was clearly not part of God's plan, since he warned them not to take such actions.

There's nothing "clear" about any of this. Was the crucifixion of Christ not in God's plans since he clearly said "Thou shalt not kill" ?

So God is flexible and fully able to change what he plans to do in any given circumstance in order to eventually achieve his aims.

You appear to be making up the story of God's progressive thought process as you go along. It is quite absurd to give such detailed analysis of the mind of God. So much for going sola Scriptura!