Creation, Man, Sin: In the beginning.....What?

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polonius
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Creation, Man, Sin: In the beginning.....What?

Post #1

Post by polonius »

Regarding sin, JW posted:
No, it was a provision for the Adamic or inherited sin of those that would have or will recognize the value of that sacrifice.
RESPONSE: This subtopic takes the present dialogue in another direction. So much so, that I believe it appropriate to create a separate thread on the legend regarding the Original sin, man's guilt, and any need for redemption.

The founding legend of Judaism written in its present form in 800-700 BC begins with the story of creation in seven days and the relationship between God and man and sin.

In the beginning:

“Scientists estimate that the hominid lineage diverged from the ape lineage 5 to 8 million years ago. Homo sapiens, the species to which we belong, has existed for about 100,000 years.�

www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/faq/cat06.html

So at the very onset, we have a vast disagreement between the Bible’s seven days of creation account and what science tells us.

Let’s, by way of overview, take a brief look at “Bible truth� regarding man’s nature.

It all begins with an explanation as to why things die.

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Re: Creation, Man, Sin: In the beginning.....What?

Post #51

Post by JehovahsWitness »

myth-one.com wrote:
Genesis 1:31 wrote:And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

Is a formless, empty, dark earth good?
Everything God does is good (Deut 32:4), so in this case yes. Are you trying to suggest otherwise?

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Re: Creation, Man, Sin: In the beginning.....What?

Post #52

Post by myth-one.com »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
myth-one.com wrote:
Genesis 1:31 wrote:And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.

Is a formless, empty, dark earth good?
Everything God does is good (Deut 32:4), so in this case yes. Are you trying to suggest otherwise?

JW
If a formless, empty, dark earth is good, why did God begin changing those conditions in Genesis 1:3 by restoring light?
Genesis 1:3-5 wrote:And God said, “Let there be light,� and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,� and the darkness he called “night.� And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
And if God created light on the first day, on what day did He create the dark, empty, formless earth?

Everything God does is good!

Therefore, God did not create the earth as formless, empty, and dark as you insist.

He created it good, and it became that way.

So He returned and restored it to its original good conditions!

This restoration and re-creation began in Genesis 1:3 when He turned the lights back on.

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Re: Creation, Man, Sin: In the beginning.....What?

Post #53

Post by JehovahsWitness »

myth-one.com wrote: If a formless, empty, dark earth is good, why did God begin changing those conditions [...]?
Because he can!

Just because God changes something that doesn't mean that it necessarily has to be from "bad" to "good". Especially as the bible indicates clearly that everything God does is perfect (ie without fault) and to imply that God changed things because they were previously "bad" would imply God intialy made a mistake and the changes were "corrections" which again cannot be the case since anything he creates is already perfect. So reasonably, God changed the earth because it was his will to do so. He created the earth initially in the condition that he it was because that was how he wanted to do things.

Besides ...

If the state of darkness was fundamentally "bad" then a perfect God would not have allowed any 'bad' darkness to remain in his universe or on the planet that he finally pronounced "very good". However Genesis not only says God allowed for some darkness but even named it, calling the darkness "night" and the "light" day.

And if not having form (being formless) is "bad" or corrupt, then God could never have allowed anything that is without form exist on his planet, and yet gasses, oxygen, all liquids are without form, taking on the form of that which contains it but not having a distinct form itself.

And while our planet is indeed teaming with life, it is doubtful that anything living exists in its core where temperatures make life impossible. Does that mean that since it is void (without life) that God allowed a centre of bad in his planet of good? And what of the moon. While the moon may reflect the sun's light, as yet it seems it is completely "void", empty of life. Yes it was part of the arrangement God finally declared good (even though it is void).

The idea that God made the earth one way and that it magically made itself bad presumably while he was not looking, only for God to desperately scramble to repair the damage is, quite frankly absurd.







Perfect doesn't necessarily mean "finished"

Imagine if we could observe the best cook in the world making a perfect cake. He or she might take the best flour, the freshest eggs, the sweetest sugar the smoothest butter. Mixing them all together he makes "perfect" batter, perfect consistency to eventually make the most sublime cake ever made to man. At what stage is the mixture "bad"? Just because the batter is liquid and the finished product will be cooked and solid, just because the liquid is "without form" and the finished cake will be shaped into the form or a flock of seagulls, does that mean that observing the cook the liquid batter is "a mistake" that needs correcting? So why does the Perfect cook put the liguid in the oven and change it if it wasn't "a mistake" and "bad"? Because it was not finished! He has a vision of the finished product and liquid without form is not what he wants the finished product to be. It wasn't bad as batter (it was perfect batter), it just wasn't what he wanted in the end. So he changed it.

Obviously from the Genesis account we see God progressively preparing the earth for human habitation not running after himself, correcting a series of his own botched mistakes. The earth went from being dark to having light, from having no vegetation, to having abundant vegetation and plant life, from being empty of life to eventually having much land and animal life .... none of this is presented in terms of "reparation" of mistakes, so why conclude that the planet that evidently went from being a mass of liquid and gasses to solidifying and having dry land emerge and taking on form as a "solid" globe anything other than a privileged view of the Master at work?
Another illustration: A skilled sculpture may begin molding a crude lump of clay, applying pressure, liquid, until slowly gradually observers see him form it into a beautiful vase, which after baking it in a kiln he may decorate to present the finished product. Should an observer of the early stage of his work say say "Oh look, he made a mistake and made an ugly lump of clay and now he is trying to repair is error and make that "bad" clay a good vase? Are we watching a skilled worker doing what he wants with the raw material as he sees fit. Or a desperate repairer trying to fix his ugly mistake?
God of course could have clicked his divine fingers and the entire planet would have suddenly appeared in a nanoasecond fully finished with Adam and Eve in place, but he chose to have recorded the progressive stages of creation and allowed us to have a birds eye view as he skillfully created physical elements and manipulated those elements, step by step into the awesome planet we call home.

Early earth was never "bad"; it just wasn't finished!




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Re: Creation, Man, Sin: In the beginning.....What?

Post #54

Post by ttruscott »

myth-one.com wrote:And if God created light on the first day, on what day did He create the dark, empty, formless earth?

Everything God does is good!

Therefore, God did not create the earth as formless, empty, and dark as you insist.

He created it good, and it became that way.

So He returned and restored it to its original good conditions!

This restoration and re-creation began in Genesis 1:3 when He turned the lights back on.
I understand your point but this bit of logic fails because there is no reason to suspect that formless, empty, and dark necessarily means bad if that is the way HE wanted it to be at that time. But the pov of Genesis referring to a restoration is accepted by many.

Because some people, perhaps even two different groups of people, saw the creation of the physical universe, (the big bang maybe) because Job 38:7 tell us they sang HIS praises at that time, I do not think the physical creation was the first creation since the creation of Spirits came first.

So "in the beginning," does not refer to the most beginning of beginnings but leaves out the prior creation of Spirits. And since the serpent arrives in the garden already evil and full of sinful intent, it also leaves out the demonic fall...makes one wonder if anything else was left out, eh?
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: Creation, Man, Sin: In the beginning.....What?

Post #55

Post by ttruscott »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
myth-one.com wrote: If a formless, empty, dark earth is good, why did God begin changing those conditions [...]?
Because he can!

Just because God changes something that doesn't mean that it necessarily has to be from "bad" to "good". Especially as the bible indicates clearly that everything God does is perfect (ie without fault) and to imply that God changed things because they were previously "bad" would imply God intialy made a mistake and the changes were "corrections" which again cannot be the case since anything he creates is already perfect.
A mistake of logic I think... GOD responds to the actions of HIS creation and changes often follows their deeds or mis-deeds so I don't think changing something necessarily implies a created bad changing to a created good.

IF the creation created people able to become bad by their free will then there would indeed be a bad that needed to be corrected without implying GOD first created that badness. IF HE gave us a free will and we created evil, we became enslaved to its power at that moment, losing our free will. Earth is the house of correction and our lives are the curative method designed to return our free will and then train our free will in righteousness.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Re: Creation, Man, Sin: In the beginning.....What?

Post #56

Post by ttruscott »

JehovahsWitness wrote:If the state of darkness was fundamentally "bad" then a perfect God would not have allowed any 'bad' darkness to remain in his universe or on the planet that he finally pronounced "very good". However Genesis not only says God allowed for some darkness but even named it, calling the darkness "night" and the "light" day.
I wrote a short essay about this light...guess who gets it? :)

In the April 2014 edition of Discover magazine, astrophysicist/cosmologist
Avi Loeb stated that the Bible attributes the appearance of stars and
galaxies to the divine proclamation "Let there be light". Is Mr. Loeb's
statement correct? No; of course not. God created light on the very first day
of creation; while luminous celestial objects weren't created until the fourth.

GOD is light and Jesus is the light of the world. The use of light in these contexts indicate that GOD's light is moral perfection and loving compassion and has nothing to do with photons or the material world at all.

So, unless GOD is creating HIMself or HIS divine attributes with "Let there be light!" we should consider the idea that what HE created was people in HIS image who could by their free will enjoy and share moral perfection and loving compassion by means of faith in HIM. To carry on the analogy, separating the light from the darkness (which cannot refer to physical light either since light automatically separates the darkness and needs no divine intervention) would then refer to the bringing of HIS creation to the choice to abide in HIS Light, that is, to accept HIS claims to deity and HIS promise of heaven by salvation called election OR to twist to the dark side, rejecting HIS claims to deity and scorning HIS election promise to heaven by salvation from sin. [Night: properly, a twist (away of the light)] Does this intrude adversely upon JW doctrine?

By our own free will choice we separated ourselves into the light and the dark. The refinement of that separation has resulted in some of the (light) elect becoming evil/dark/unfaithful/seduced and enslaved by evil and needing redemption which is found in their living with the reprobate tares until they are turned back to the light of purity and holiness by GOD's grace, by Christ's salvation.

IF what is written cannot refer to physical light (the need for a separation between the light and the dark before the sun and stars were created) then it must refer to Spiritual Light and this explanation of what is meant by spiritual light is the best I got since I've never heard of any other meaning.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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Post #57

Post by myth-one.com »

And God saw the light, that it was good. (Genesis 1:4)

...and God saw that it was good. (Genesis 1:10)
   (referring to dry ground)

...and God saw that it was good. (Genesis 1:12)
   (referring to vegetation)

...and God saw that it was good. (Genesis 1:18)
   (referring to night and day)

...and God saw that it was good. (Genesis 1:21)
   (referring to sea and air creatures)

...and God saw that it was good... (Genesis 1:25)
   (referring to land creatures)

And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. (Genesis 1:31)
Every thing God made was seen to be "very good" by God.

God created the earth in Genesis 1:1:
Genesis 1:1 wrote:In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Since God created the earth, and every thing He created was very good, then the earth was created very good by God in Genesis 1:1!

For the earth to then be described as without form, void, and dark in Genesis 1:2, it had to have become that way after being created in Genesis 1:1!

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Re: Creation, Man, Sin: In the beginning.....What?

Post #58

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 56 by ttruscott]


Hello there, it's always a pleasure to read a well presented post I can see you put a lot of thought into what you write. That said it seems to me that you are concluding that Genesis is speaking only metaphorically and are suggesting that, rather than speaking about the creation of the physical universe consisting of planets, stars that give off light (the absence of light being literal darkness) and the planet earth on which we presentl live, that it was speaking about moral enlightenment and all connected with that.

Jehovah's Witesses acknowlege the scriptures often speak about light metaphorically (refering to spiritual truths, knowledge or information from God that has a positive effect on people), however we believe that Genesis 1 is literally refering to God creating the physical universe.

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Romans 14:8

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Post #59

Post by JehovahsWitness »

myth-one.com wrote:
Genesis 1:1 wrote:In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Since God created the earth, and every thing He created was very good, then ... the earth to then be described as without form, void, and dark in Genesis 1:2, it had to have become that way after being created in Genesis 1:1!
Except the bible doesn't say it "became" formless/dark/void it simply says it was.
To illlustrate: If you were informed that a friend just had a baby, and that the baby "was a girl", would you presume that the baby was previously a boy and it became a girl? Would you say "I heard you had a baby girl, congratulations, when did it become a girl?" No! you would not presume that it had to be changed to a girl from a previous condition.
The earth is described as being created and is described as being "formless/dark/and void", there is no reason to presume that it was therefore not created in that condition.

#QUESTION: Are we to presume the earth was finished when it is described in Genesis 1:2?

No, Genesis Chapter two explains, after having described a series of processes over 6 creative "days"... "Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array.". If at the end of the six days the earth was "completed" prior to that moment logically it was "incomplete".

CONCLUSION: Logically then, rather than presume without any textual support that the earth was completed prior to the first day, somehow damaged, then corrected, it it more reasonable to accept the text as written that the earth was initially created in a condition as described but that, as the text implies, it was not completed until after a series of manipulations and processes had taken place (See post below "early earth").
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Post #60

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 57 by myth-one.com]




GENESIS 1:2
Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
.... How can a world, which is generally taken to be material, be "formless and void"?



EARLY EARTH



The bible provides (4) different elements regarding the formation of early earth

1) it was intially formless (without definite shape)
2) it was uninhabitable (could not sustain life) "waste"
3) light could not intially penetrate to its surface (it was dark)
4) the surface was predominately liquid "waterly" (water/liquid like)


1) Was the earth 'formless'? being 'formless' means to be without form; Having no definite shape; shapeless.Solids are objects that have a definite shape (=form) and definite volume; Gases have no fixed/definite shape or volume; the particles move in random motion with little or no attraction to each other.

It is believed by scientists that the planets (including what would become our planet earth) originally started as the outer particles of a cloud of gas and dust that heated to become a ball of gas and molten-liquid.
Image
scientists have ascertained that ... the cloud of gas and dust started to collapse as gravity pulled everything together, forming a solar nebula—a huge spinning disk. ... The center of the disk accreted to become the Sun, and the particles in the outer rings turned into large fiery balls of gas and molten-liquid that cooled and condensed to take on solid form.

source: https://phys.org/news/2014-12-earth.html


2) Was the earth "waste"? In hebrew (the language the bible was written in) the word waste is applied to areas that cannot be inhabited. Was the earth initially uninhabitable (abiotic, lifeless) ? Scientist reckon that the planet would have intially been unable to sustain life for three main reasons

*the heat (apparently the earth was made up of extremely hot liquid rock, even at the surface)
*the atmosphere (atmosphere was a mix of gases that would be toxic to all forms of life)
*the cooling state, with no vegetation, animals, or human beings


3) Was it dark as the bible says?The bible indicates that light was initially not discernable from the surface, indeed some theorize that the primitive earth long remained covered in darkness, due to outgassing from volcanic eruptions.

4) Was the earths surface initially "watery" as it says in scripture? Scientist speculate that the early the atmosphere of our planet was indeed most likely full of water vapor and noxious gases, such as hydrogen sulfide, methane, carbon dioxide, ammonia, and nitrogen.

Scientists refer to this period of time as "the Hadean period".


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Further reading
http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2006/ ... ler-text/2

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

THE PHYSICAL HEAVENS , THE PLANET EARTH and ...THE 7 CREATIVE DAYS OF GENESIS
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed Aug 31, 2022 11:32 pm, edited 13 times in total.
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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