"Torture stake" vs. "Cross"

[Elijah John]

Jehovah's Witness changed the word "cross" to "torture stake" and the word "crucified" to "impaled" in their New World Translation of the Bible.

This seems to be the only translation that does so.

And JW illustrations of the crucifixion depict Jesus not on the cross, but hanging from a pole, a "torture stake".

For debate: Why did their translators do this?

What theological or doctrinal clarification could this change possibly convey?

Does this change defy history, or did the Romans "impale" it's criminals as opposed to crucifying them?

Also, do these changes enchance or detract from the NWT's credibility?

[Monta]

[Replying to post 88 by Claire Evans]

"It doesn't matter that the RCC incorporated pagan holidays into Christianity. It is what is in one's heart that matters."

The Divine Being we call God has been revealing Himslef to humans from the beginning of time, including pagans.
Pagan's celebration of fertility what was to become Christmas, celebration of Christ's descent to earth is quite befitting. Christianity has spread throughout all nations of the world.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 88 by Claire Evans]

"It doesn't matter that the RCC incorporated pagan holidays into Christianity. It is what is in one's heart that matters."

The Divine Being we call God has been revealing Himslef to humans from the beginning of time, including pagans.
Pagan's celebration of fertility what was to become Christmas, celebration of Christ's descent to earth is quite befitting. Christianity has spread throughout all nations of the world.

Jesus doesn't align himself with or associate with demons or their teachings. He CAST OUT demons, and he didn't then sit down with them and have some pomegranate punch. True Christianity would not hold hands with demonic traditions. Pagans from the beginning of time heard the truth but REJECTED it. That's why they are PAGANS. Tainted Christianity has spread throughout all nations, and that's one reason why true Christians have to go and preach to all the nations. (Matt.24:14) How can you accept VOODOO + Catholicism? It is the popular way of worshipping in most S.American and African nations. A lot of BOTH. The Bible says:

"Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness?...What agreement does God's temple have with idols?...'Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,' says Jehovah, 'and quit touching the unclean thing.'" (2Corinth.6:14-17)

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[Monta]

[Replying to post 91 by onewithhim]

"Jesus doesn't align himself with or associate with demons or their teachings. He CAST OUT demons, and he didn't then sit down with them and have some pomegranate punch. True Christianity would not hold hands with demonic traditions. Pagans from the beginning of time heard the truth but REJECTED it. That's why they are PAGANS. Tainted Christianity has spread throughout all nations, and that's one reason why true Christians have to go and preach to all the nations. (Matt.24:14) How can you accept VOODOO + Catholicism? It is the popular way of worshipping in most S.American and African nations. "

I do not approve of voodoo.

See Paganism as ancient beliefs. There were times when revelations were not available and people searched for answers. Some of them see earth as sacred and perhaps their own perceived gods. They are close to nature. I just do not want to enter into judgment of things I don't know much about.

Remember when Jehovah introduced Himself to Abraham by some foreign god...forgot his name.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 91 by onewithhim]

"Jesus doesn't align himself with or associate with demons or their teachings. He CAST OUT demons, and he didn't then sit down with them and have some pomegranate punch. True Christianity would not hold hands with demonic traditions. Pagans from the beginning of time heard the truth but REJECTED it. That's why they are PAGANS. Tainted Christianity has spread throughout all nations, and that's one reason why true Christians have to go and preach to all the nations. (Matt.24:14) How can you accept VOODOO + Catholicism? It is the popular way of worshipping in most S.American and African nations. "

I do not approve of voodoo.

See Paganism as ancient beliefs. There were times when revelations were not available and people searched for answers. Some of them see earth as sacred and perhaps their own perceived gods. They are close to nature. I just do not want to enter into judgment of things I don't know much about.

Remember when Jehovah introduced Himself to Abraham by some foreign god...forgot his name.

If you don't approve of VooDoo then how can you turn a blind eye to contaminated Catholicism, which is common? Catholicism + Voodoo = large part of Catholicism

Most ancient beliefs were against true religion. They rejected the true God, Jehovah. The earth is indeed "sacred" because it is deemed very precious by Jehovah. He will soon "bring to ruin those ruining the earth." (Revelation 11:18b) That doesn't mean, however, that anyone can worship the earth.

It's OK to enter into judgment on something you DO know something about, so research things and find out what's been going on throughout history, and what the Bible says about things. We are not to judge INDIVIDUALS, but religious institutions we can judge, just as Jesus did.

No, I don't remember Jehovah introducing himself to Abraham by some foreign name. Please provide the chapter and verse.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 93 by onewithhim]

"No, I don't remember Jehovah introducing himself to Abraham by some foreign name. Please provide the chapter and verse. "

I shall check with a friend who know the Bible better than I.

Not being Catholic I didn't know they'd have anything close to woodoo?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 93 by onewithhim]

"No, I don't remember Jehovah introducing himself to Abraham by some foreign name. Please provide the chapter and verse. "

I shall check with a friend who know the Bible better than I.

Not being Catholic I didn't know they'd have anything close to woodoo?

Catholicism in S. American and African countries combines Voodoo with Catholicism. Check out Santeria, Dia de los Muertos, along with Voodoo + Catholic Church.....see what you get. One of our brothers, before he became a JW, asked his priest in Africa about Voodoo being involved with Catholicism, and the priest said it was totally fine. That's when the young man decided to study with JWs.


Voodoo:

www.reformation.org/voodoo-and-the-vatican.html




Some of the sites I went to were blocking access. Hmmmm.

[2timothy316]

CONCLUSION: Jehovah's Witneseses thoroughly research the language and history of a word before making their translation decisions. While I have noted some have presented speculation and preferences, one person even present a song as "counter argument", this is all rather like refuting the theory of relativity, with a banana; convincing for some perhaps but not enough to convince those interested in academically sound research.

In throwing away hundreds of years of acceptance of Christ's cross, JWs have formed an opinion. The arguments presented are plausible but they hardly merit removing Christ from his place in history to impalement on a stake. Let us not confuse academic research with contentious conclusion.

While it might not be removing all doubt that Jesus was placed on stake and not a cross. Even if Jesus did died on a cross, the love of the cross and it's use as divine symbol is, according to the Bible, idolatry. This would be the same if people used a pole or stake rather than a cross, it would still be idolatry. An image in the 'form of any figure' used for worship is not acceptable by God.

I actually work with a woman that has a cross on every wall in her house. When I made note of it she told me the reason she does this is so to keep demons and evil spirits out of her house. To think that some piece of wood will protect her, this is dangerous thinking.

Habakkuk 2:18 “Of what value is an idol carved by a craftsman? Or an image that teaches lies? For the one who makes it trusts in his own creation; he makes idols that cannot speak."

Deuteronomy 4:16-18 "so that you do not act corruptly and make a graven image for yourselves in the form of any figure, the likeness of male or female, the likeness of any animal that is on the earth, the likeness of any winged bird that flies in the sky, the likeness of anything that creeps on the ground, the likeness of any fish that is in the water below the earth."

It's not the actual physical cross that scares demons but the representation of it. Without the Holy Spirit, the cross means nothing. Crosses are very effective in exorcisms.

I do have an experience where it was evident that demons were afraid of my cross.

Thank you for giving an example of exactly what I was talking about. You have just given credit to a cross and not to Almighty God.

[Monta]

"It's not the actual physical cross that scares demons but the representation of it. Without the Holy Spirit, the cross means nothing. Crosses are very effective in exorcisms. "

Physical cross that someone wears or posseses in reverence and as a reminder of Lord's sacrifice, would have power.

Don't know about a cross worn just as a piece of jewlerry by a non- believer.

As co-workers with God, non-believer has not done his part.

[2timothy316]

"It's not the actual physical cross that scares demons but the representation of it. Without the Holy Spirit, the cross means nothing. Crosses are very effective in exorcisms. "

Physical cross that someone wears or posseses in reverence and as a reminder of Lord's sacrifice, would have power.

Don't know about a cross worn just as a piece of jewlerry by a non- believer.

As co-workers with God, non-believer has not done his part.

"I am Jehovah. That is my name; I give my glory to no one else, Nor my praise to graven images." - Isaiah 42:8

I don't know how to make it more clear than that...

[Monta]

"It's not the actual physical cross that scares demons but the representation of it. Without the Holy Spirit, the cross means nothing. Crosses are very effective in exorcisms. "

Physical cross that someone wears or posseses in reverence and as a reminder of Lord's sacrifice, would have power.

Don't know about a cross worn just as a piece of jewlerry by a non- believer.

As co-workers with God, non-believer has not done his part.

"I am Jehovah. That is my name; I give my glory to no one else, Nor my praise to graven images." - Isaiah 42:8

I don't know how to make it more clear than that...

And I agree. Don't mistake by wearing a cross for instance that yu giving it some glory. It is only a representation.