What is God responsible for?

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Willum
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What is God responsible for?

Post #1

Post by Willum »

Many things were done in God's name:
But what is he responsible for?

When the Catholic Nazi Germany attempts a genocide, a man is blamed.
When Hebrews commit genocide on the Canaan, it is his will.

We have plagues, on Catholic countries, for example. The Dark Ages were committed in Yahweh's name. Were they?

Why would Yahweh plunge the civilization of Rome, with health, farming and sanitation, back into the primitive squalor of ancient Jerusalem, if so?

If not, why did he not stop such a terror? It seems to be in His purview.

How does one determine if an act is done in God's will, or men's will?
Does the Bible tell us?

Understanding that free will is a constraint - we can also understand that mob's and large numbers of people lose free will, does this fall into God's purview, then?

In short, how does one know what God is responsible for;
Any group decision?
A decision influenced by prayer?

The position is that presented by Romans 13:
Obey the rulers who have authority over you. Only God can give authority to anyone, and he puts these rulers in their places of power. 2 People who oppose the authorities are opposing what God has done, and they will be punished. 3 Rulers are a threat to evil people, not to good people. There is no need to be afraid of the authorities. Just do right, and they will praise you for it. 4 After all, they are God’s servants, and it is their duty to help you.
The position of the OP is: those atrocities committed by governments, God's will, and he is responsible for them.

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Post #321

Post by onewithhim »

dio9 wrote: [Replying to post 305 by 2timothy316]

And about the narrow Gate , that verse reminded me of the still "small' voice Elijah told us about. One has to listen carefully , its easy to be distracted.
Jesus indicated quite vehemently that it is the person who does the will of the Father who is accepted by Him. (Matthew 7:21)

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Post #322

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 316 by dio9]


[center]∼(p · ∼p)
Part Two : Conscience is not Truth[/center]

dio9 wrote:
There is something in everyone called a conscience. An active conscience tells us if we are or aren't walking the walk.
Yep, there IS such a thing as an "active conscience".
And there is such a thing as "the truth of a belief".

The problem with that is :


CONSCIENCE ≠ TRUTH



Or, in more general terms, ∼(p · ∼p)




Are you starting to see a pattern developing ?


:)

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Post #323

Post by postroad »

[Replying to post 319 by 2timothy316] is this the text?
Luke 12:4-5New International Version (NIV)

4 “I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.
Although if their soul simply will be destroyed there why is Jesus portraying hell as something to be feared worse than any torture human imagination can devise?

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Post #324

Post by onewithhim »

postroad wrote: [Replying to post 319 by 2timothy316] is this the text?
Luke 12:4-5New International Version (NIV)

4 “I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after your body has been killed, has authority to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.
Although if their soul simply will be destroyed there why is Jesus portraying hell as something to be feared worse than any torture human imagination can devise?
Jesus wasn't referring to a fiery hell. He was always referring to COMPLETE OBLITERATION whenever he mentioned fire. The NIV mistranslates the word in verse 5 that is rendered "hell" by it. The original Greek word there is GEHENNA, which means total annihilation. Look it up and you can see that this is so.

When Jesus said to fear Him (Jehovah) who has the authority to throw you into Gehenna, he was saying that Jehovah can decline to resurrect anyone who does not wish to be His friend. A man might be able to kill the body, but a man cannot decide a person's fate after that.

Isn't NON-EXISTENCE worse than anything men can imagine?


(The Interlinear Bible/ English, Greek and Hebrew renders Luke 12:5 word-for-word this way: "But you whom you should fear fear the One after the killing authority having to throw into GEHENNA.") Why do various versions render three absolutely different words which mean different things as "hell"? "Gehenna," "Hades," and "Tartarus" are not all "hell."


:blink:

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Post #325

Post by Willum »

[Replying to post 324 by onewithhim]
Isn't NON-EXISTENCE worse than anything men can imagine?
Sounds preferable to heaven to me.

Can you imagine all the redeemed child-molesters and murderers?
Like I always say, "I'd rather burn in Hell with Gandhi, than party in Heaven with Hitler."

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Post #326

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 324 by onewithhim]




[center]I wonder where Christians get the idea of a fiery hell from?[/center]

onewithhim wrote:
Jesus wasn't referring to a fiery hell. He was always referring to COMPLETE OBLITERATION whenever he mentioned fire.

Maybe he meant like a nuke.


onewithhim wrote:
The NIV mistranslates the word in verse 5 that is rendered "hell" by it. The original Greek word there is GEHENNA, which means total annihilation. Look it up and you can see that this is so.
Like the kind of total annihilation you get when you are burned in a fiery hell for an eternity, something like that kind of total annihilation?

Nuclear war?
Zombie apocolypso?


Having to watch reruns of "Friends"?

onewithhim wrote:
When Jesus said to fear Him (Jehovah) who has the authority to throw you into Gehenna, he was saying that Jehovah can decline to resurrect anyone who does not wish to be His friend. A man might be able to kill the body, but a man cannot decide a person's fate after that.
Except, God.. He can do anything.

onewithhim wrote:
Isn't NON-EXISTENCE worse than anything men can imagine?
No.

Didn't seem to hurt me a BIT before I was born.


I can imagine a lot worse than that and I don't even have to imagine them myself, some other folks did it for me:


Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.�

Matthew 25:46
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.�

2 Thessalonians 1:9
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Matthew 13:50
50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mark 9:43
43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

Jude 1:7
7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Matthew 13:42
42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:41
41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Revelation 19:20
20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Proverbs 15:11
11 Death and Destruction lie open before the LORD— how much more do human hearts!

2 Peter 2:4
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

Revelation 20:13-14
13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

Matthew 10:28
28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.


:)

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Post #327

Post by 2timothy316 »

Willum wrote: [Replying to post 324 by onewithhim]
Isn't NON-EXISTENCE worse than anything men can imagine?
Sounds preferable to heaven to me.

Can you imagine all the redeemed child-molesters and murderers?
Like I always say, "I'd rather burn in Hell with Gandhi, than party in Heaven with Hitler."
What are churches teaching people these days for people to parrot slogans like this one?

Are they teaching that Jehovah is going to allow child molesters and murderers to live in His kingdom? Well, the Bible says different. "Just a little while longer, and the wicked will be no more; You will look at where they were, And they will not be there." Psalm 37:10. Even if a person was a murderer and they were forgiven they will not be able to do it again. Revelation 21:4 states, "And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.� This scripture can't be true if a person will be allowed to murder another person. People harming others would be part of the 'former things' and cause an 'outcry'.

So when you say 'can you imagine', no I cannot because the Bible doesn't support it.

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Post #328

Post by Blastcat »

[Replying to post 327 by 2timothy316]



[center]
Adolf says "I believe"
[/center]

2timothy316 wrote:
Are they teaching that Jehovah is going to allow child molesters and murderers to live in His kingdom? Well, the Bible says different. "


Yeah, I suppose you can show us some Bible verses that would agree with that NON redemption of Adolf idea, but some folks might not agree with it:




Ephesians 1:7
In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

Mark 10:45
"For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

Matthew 20:28
just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many."

Matthew 26:26-28
While they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat; this is My body." And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

1 Corinthians 1:30
But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

1 Timothy 2:6
who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.

Titus 2:14
who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"--

Acts 20:28
"Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.


Romans 3:25
whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

1 Corinthians 6:20
For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.

1 Corinthians 7:23
You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men.

1 Peter 1:18-19
knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.

Hebrews 9:12
and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Revelation 1:5-6
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth To Him who loves us and released us from our sins[/i] by His blood-- and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father--to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 5:9
And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.

Colossians 1:13-14
For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Romans 3:23-25
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

Galatians 4:5
so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Hebrews 9:15
For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Galatians 4:4-7
But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba! Father!"

1 Corinthians 6:19-20
Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.

1 Corinthians 7:22-24
For he who was called in the Lord while a slave, is the Lord's freedman; likewise he who was called while free, is Christ's slave. You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men. Brethren, each one is to remain with God in that condition in which he was called.

Colossians 1:13
For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son,

Hebrews 9:14
how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Revelation 5:9-10
And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. "You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."

Luke 21:28
"But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."




So, come on, Adolf, have a little faith. Say you believe in Jesus and see ya in heaven !!



:)

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Post #329

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 326 by Blastcat]
An impressive list of scriptures, but I notice no explanations were provided, so I have a few question. Is there a reason you seem to be taking these scriptures literally? If so, can you answer a few questions I have in this regard?
Revelation 21:8
** Why do you conclude the lake of fire is literal? If so where can it literally be found?
What is the "second death"? Why is is called "second"?

**Matthew 25:46
Does this scripture say what the "Eternal punishment" is? We know it will be Eternal but does this scripture say what is eternal?


**2 Thessalonians 1:9
If you destroy Something, does it continue to exist? If God destroys a person do they somehow survive the experience?

** Matthew 13:50
Why do you think this should be taken literally? If you burnt something "forever" in a furnace would their teeth survive so they could "gnash"?

** Mark 9:43
If the hell is literal in this passage, is the literally cutting off one's limbs literal as well? How can one's hand literally make one stumble, since your stumbling would involve your feet? If some of the expression is metaphoric, why not the rest?

** Jude 1:7
Where the people in Sodom and Gomorrah burnt eternally or did they eventually die and stop burning? If they stopped burning, but were utterly destroyed what is the link between Eternal torture and the future of the wicked?


** Matthew 13:42
Do teeth survive to gnash in a burning furnace? Who was Jesus speaking to? Did he ever use the above expressing in the context of death?

** Matthew 25:41
Why is this speaking about burning angels? Can spirits burn?

** Revelation 19:20
What is the beast and the false prophet mentioned here mean? Is there a literal beast and if so, what is it?


** Proverbs 15:11
Why would the fact that God can read hearts prove that hell is a place of Eternal burning?

** 2 Peter 2:4
What word in the original greek did Peter use here translated as "hell" was it the same word in all the other passages? In fact was the same word employed in all the other passeges mentioned above? If not, why not?

** Revelation 20:13-14
Death is a condition (like happiness or sadness), hades is the grave, why does this scripture speaking about burning them? How can you burn or torture "happiness" or death?

** Matthew 10:28
If God destroys your soul, do you think it survives the experience to continue conscious living (and suffering) elsewhere?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Post #330

Post by marco »

Blastcat wrote:

CONSCIENCE ≠ TRUTH



Or, in more general terms, ∼(p · ∼p)


Conscience is not truth, certainly, but ∼(p · ∼p) doesn't apply. We do not have a statement and its negation. Conscience and truth are not in the relation p and ∼p


Conscience is not truth but it is not the antithesis of truth so that if one is present the other cannot be. They can happily co-exist truthfully, where truth and "not truth" cannot both be true.

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