Theists don't ask questions

[Blastcat]

Hi

I ask a lot of questions.. and SOMETIMES ( but not always ) get answers.

One of the reasons that I do ask a lot of questions, is that I don't actually learn anything new by proselytizing atheism. I do that a bit, of course, I think it's important that people get to know an atheist and what he thinks about the "big questions" and so on, but I am ALSO here to learn what OTHER people think.

So, the questions.

It just occurred to me that I RARELY get any questions from the theists.
Isn't that odd?

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Question for debate:

• 
  
  Why is it that theists don't seem very curious as to what outsiders to their beliefs think?
  
  

____________

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 41 by Hector Barbosa]


[center]
Some questions for atheists.[/center]

Everything that we call "alive" is composed of inorganic mater.
I don't pretend to know what is "immaterial matter", it sounds like an oxymoron to me

Life is matter?

I didn't say that.
But I did make a mistake that I should correct. I meant to say "ORGANIC" matter, or just plain and simple "matter". I wrote "inorganic" by mistake.

___________________

FOR THE RECORD:

All living things that we know about are composed of matter.

___________________

By using perhaps, subjective morality... ?
And... quite subjective purposes, too.

Yes exactly! morality then becomes subjective without God or a purpose, but is it then really morals?

Yes, the real morals that people have are "really morals", subjective or not.
People are free to invent a God that's supposed to "ground" objective morality all they like.

I won't pretend along with them.
A lot of people make unsubstantiated claims like that.

If they would like to ground their morality on "God", they would first have to demonstrate that it could even be POSSIBLE that there is a "God" that grounds their so called "objective" morality.

And I have yet to get a clear definition for "objective morality" from these apologists that isn't completely circular.

• 
  Needing a God to ground one's morality ≠ God grounds morality

Isn't it in fact just ethics since it comes from the material world?

I don't know what you mean by that.

And if morals are subjective, who is to say what is right and wrong or even true or false then?

I have my own personal standards of morals, they seem pretty darn "objective" to me. And the society that I live in has it's own objective standards of morals. Those two standards mostly fit.

But I disagree with some laws.. in fact many. No moral code is perfect.

What order is left without objective morality?

It's as if you're pretending that subjective morality is no morality at all, and complete chaos. I think you are wrong. I just see this as playing around with words. Some places in the world has more "order" than others. Call it what you will, subjective morality or objective. Go for it.

That's ok with me.
I just wont pretend along, is that ok?

Here is a short 5 minute video of what Theists MIGHT mean with the term "objective morality" and it may also help you understand the point of my questions about morality from a non-theist point of view.

For I think this objective morality is a quite strong argument for theism.

Great.
But you failed to provide the link.

I don't pretend to know what started evolution, and I don't pretend to know what caused the Big Bang, either. Want me to make something up for you?

I didn't think so Would you be surprised if I told you that neither do most scientists?

Of course not.
That's just the state of affairs.

[center]
Scientists who do their jobs right don't play pretend. [/center]

You ask if I want you to make something up for me. But I am neither theist or atheist, so what would you base your questions on?

Hmmm you say that you are neither an atheist NOR a theist. What other positions are there? How DO you define your position on the existence of gods or goddesses?

No opinion at all?
That can happen, I suppose.

I meant if you aren't happy with an honest answer, I can spin a comforting yarn for you, instead.

I don't think the arguments we have available right now makes sense. I have investigated them thoroughly, and they STILL don't make sense and it is easy for me to find holes in them.

I don't know what arguments you are talking about.
But no argument is perfect, I suppose.

Unfortunately, those questions have nothing at all to do about my atheistic conclusion.
IF theists think I have formed my reasoning on ignorance are quite literally, asking the wrong questions.

Well I am not a theist and I don't know you, you just asked for questions and I gave you some hard one which no one I know, knows the answer to and I am not surprised you don't either. I am in the same boat.

So, what should we conclude from our mutual ignorance?
What should we call if you aren't a theist?

I am all ears if you wish to explain YOUR atheistic conclusion as long as don't give me a hairball

I'll be quite happy to give you a conclusion IF I could see the argument.
I didn't make an argument for or against the existence of God.

I just answered your questions to the best of my ability.

I SUPPOSE the atheist "conclusion" is that there is no reason to believe in any gods or goddesses.

Thanks for the questions.
I feel that you are getting a better insight into my actual position by asking them.

Please, continue to do so.
Here are some of my own:

____________

Questions:

• 
  1. Can you see a difference between when I say that all life is COMPOSED of matter and what life IS? I know pretty well the components of what we call living creatures... I don't have a very good definition for the process we call "life".
  
  2. Are you saying that subjective morals are equivalent to amorality or immorality?
  
  3. Do you think it's a good idea to INVOKE a god in an argument designed to DEMONSTRATE there is such a thing as a god? I would call that "question begging".
  
  4. Do you think that if you have a NEED for something ( in this example, objective morals ) , that therefore, it must exist?
  
  5. Could you explain this statement :"Isn't it in fact just ethics since it comes from the material world?" I didn't understand it at all.
  
  6. What do you think that our not knowing something about the universe demonstrates about a god's existence?
  
  7. Do you have an opinion concerning the existence of gods or goddesses? If so, what is it?
  
  8. Did I answer your hard questions sufficiently?
  
  

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[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 41 by Hector Barbosa]

Life is matter? What evidence do you have of this? Could you tell me what elements on the periodic table life consist of?

Hydrogen, oxygen, iron, phosphorous, carbon...the list goes on. Are you seriously trying to propose that life isn't made up of matter, and elements from the periodic table?

Here is a short 5 minute video of what Theists MIGHT mean

Missing the video.

I didn't think so Wink Would you be surprised if I told you that neither do most scientists?

...I don't think Blastcat (or myself for that matter) are surprised at all. On the contrary, it's often something that we ourselves bring up and mention, that NO-ONE knows what caused evolution to start, or what is the cause of the Big Bang (or if the term cause even means anything with respect to the Big Bang).
Are you trying to do God of the Gaps here?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 47 by rikuoamero]

Not the first I've wondered this. If one checks the Ask a Specific User section, one will find a list of questions from yours truly to a range of theists.

I wonder - has any theist on this site just asked point blank to an atheist their reasons for not believing in God, and then tried to resolve that?

Yeah, that's kindof my thinking here.
If they really don't wanna KNOW what the heck im thinking.. why pretend to engage?

What would you say the percentage of questions to answer that you get from the theists in here.. High or low, or somewhere more in the middle?

Who do you think has more of an open mind, the person asking tons of questions, or the one who only cares, from time to time, to answer them?

So far, the only people asking atheists questions right now is a guy who can't even tell if he is a theist or not. Am I wrong?

ARE there theists in this thread who are asking any atheist any questions?
I might have missed a few.

[Zzyzx]

.
[Replying to post 25 by hoghead1]

Always a pleasure HH

Be careful, however, you don't stereotype all theists.

I don't -- instead, really appreciate those who are reflective (or 'Thinking Theists'). It is a pleasure to debate / discuss with those who use their mind. Most often, however, there is little challenge or opportunity . . . when posts are Bible quotations, weak excuses, and pie-in-the-sky dialogue.

Some are unreflective, true. But there are plenty of reflective theists out there as well.

Our Forum seems to have more of the former than the latter. They may be 'out there' but don't seem very common 'in here'. In real life I have many Theist friends who are thinkers. We do not, however, debate or even discuss theistic matters.

The same is also true of atheists. There are reflective and unreflective atheists.

The ratio of reflective (thinking) vs. non-reflective (less thinking) 'Atheist' debaters seems to be about reversed from that of Theists.

If some atheist feels he or she isn't being asked enough questions, then maybe they should stop and ask themselves how they are going about the dialogue,

Is this to say 'blame Atheists when Theists are not motivated to, or equipped to, ask questions?'

whether they are being truly reflective, or maybe just making insensitive remarks that turn others off.

Are Theists 'being truly reflective' when they receive questions and Atheists 'not truly reflective' if they do not receive questions?

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 54 by Zzyzx]

Likewise a pleasure.

No, that isn't what I meant. What I meant is that if one feels he or she is not getting the kinds of responses they seek to their posts, or feels the kinds of response they are getting is strange, then it would behoove them to take a look at their posting style and see if maybe that is the issue, as quite often it is. Important questions to consider are: Did you type when you are angry or when you are calm? Did you ask a friend to read your post and give you some feedback before you sent it? Did you put yourself in the other guy's shoes and ask how you would respond to a post of such-and-such a nature?

[Zzyzx]

.

What I meant is that if one feels he or she is not getting the kinds of responses they seek to their posts, or feels the kinds of response they are getting is strange, then it would behoove them to take a look at their posting style and see if maybe that is the issue, as quite often it is.

HH, it seems as though BC's Question for Debate was more generalized than specific:

Why is it that theists don't seem very curious as to what outsiders to their beliefs think?

I might say 'many Theists' but otherwise agree with the observation and appropriateness of the question.

Important questions to consider are: Did you type when you are angry or when you are calm? Did you ask a friend to read your post and give you some feedback before you sent it? Did you put yourself in the other guy's shoes and ask how you would respond to a post of such-and-such a nature?

Those are all excellent points. I would add, 'always preview before posting; looking for inappropriate remarks, loose ends (or loose emotions), and improper formatting.'

As an aside, I have consulted Forum Friends from 'across the aisle' regarding what I intended to post – and some have asked me to review / critique their intended posts. Both directions have been good learning experiences.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to Blastcat]

When you send out posts with long lists of questions, you are putting considerable pressure on the responder to answer all those questions. They are going to be busy doing just that. They have no time to ask you any. Firing away loads of questions at someone can easily put that individual on the defensive, making them feel they are being grilled by some sort of major inquisition. In one of your recent posts, you closed by asking another member if there were or were not a theist. That reminded me of the McCarthy era. "Were you, or have you ever been...?"

If you feel you are not getting the kinds of responses you would like, then why don't you take a mare careful look at your posting style? Did you post such-and-such when you were angry or when you were calm? Did you ask anyone to go over your post before you sent it? Did you ask yourself if you received that kind of post, how would you feel?

If you are interested in having others hear your story, then by all means go ahead and share it. And that means tell your story, as opposed to questioning others about their position. When you ask questions, you automatically put the focus on the other guy to tell his or her story, not yours.

[William]

...I don't think Blastcat (or myself for that matter) are surprised at all. On the contrary, it's often something that we ourselves bring up and mention, that NO-ONE knows what caused evolution to start, or what is the cause of the Big Bang (or if the term cause even means anything with respect to the Big Bang).
Are you trying to do God of the Gaps here?

For me, when there is no other answer to explain something intelligent happening inside an environment which otherwise appears to be a mindless process, Intelligent Design is the obvious logical position to take on the matter.

It isn't as if such an obvious answer to the barrier of the big bang theory is making itself available to humanity, and it sure doesn't look like being answered any time soon.

Even theories involving the idea that the universe never actually had a beginning are not in opposition to the idea of Intelligent Design being the cause of the universe.

So I don't think 'god of the gaps' is at all inappropriate as a position to come from in relation to those big questions which still have no answers.

[WinePusher]

So, the questions.

It just occurred to me that I RARELY get any questions from the theists.
Isn't that odd?

Nah. I am a theist, and I generally don't ask atheists on this forum any questions unless I'm trying to better understand their position or what it is they're trying to convey. Here's the thing, why would I ask you a question? I don't care what you think about my religion, you're just a random over the internet.

Wait, are you saying that I should ask you questions about science? Lol, I don't think so. A lot of atheists on this forum pretend to be science know it all's, but when pressed their so called "science expertise" is nothing more than superficial, pretend knowledge based on quick google searches.

So yea, unless it's to clarify an argument you make, I probably won't be asking you any questions. Your personal opinions on my religion are immaterial in a debate, so I won't be asking you any questions about that. Plus I just really don't care what an internet random thinks. Also, I won't be asking any technical science questions to unverifiable randoms over the internet when I can ask my colleagues, peers, and professors.

In lieu of everything I've just written, what kinda questions should I be asking you?

Why is it that theists don't seem very curious as to what outsiders to their beliefs think?

Hm? Do you know what a loaded question is? Have you ever taken a high school logic class? Are you familiar with elementary fallacies?

I am a theist and I am VERY curious as to what outsiders think of my religion. It just depends on who the outsider is. Like I said, I don't care about the opinions of internet randoms. But I do value the opinions of established outsiders, and I respect what Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, the late Christopher Hitchens, Peter Singer think of my religion.

I've read their books, along with other classic books written by less contemporary atheists such as Bertrand Russell, Frederick Nietzsche, Ayn Rand, BF Skinner, etc. The reason why I decide to familiarize myself with their works is that I was curious as to what outsiders thought of my beliefs. So your question is fallacious, wrong and worthless.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to Zzyzx]

OK, but remember, I trying to avoid stereotyping theists or atheists, for that matter. There are plenty of major theists out there who are in fact very interested in what others think and have published significant material on the matter. Locally, that may or may not be the case, depending upon whom you are speaking to.

Another important issue to bear in mind is the nature of this forum. Everyone here is hidden behind a cloak of anonymity. There is little room to share any real degree of personal information. Members are not going receive anywhere near the kind of personal consideration and attention they would receive if the discussions were face-to-face. I guarantee you that. I think we all need to appreciate the fact that the whole atmosphere here is very impersonal, which, by the way, is why I believe there is such a strong tendency to flame away.