Kill them

[Youkilledkenny]

Kill a specific person - God has commanded killing before

Not treat your sick child - people do it all the time

Ignore a person in need or Give money to a stranger said to be in need - both obvious encounters many of us have on occasion

Prepare for a cataclysm (natural or man made) - God has commanded this prior

Do X that violates your local law obviously

The list could continue.

As a true Christian, would you do anything God tells you to do?

Why or why not?

[JehovahsWitness]

Christians aren't grafted into a separate covenant.

What in your opinion does that mean? What is your point here?

Jesus preached the gospel exclusively to Jews. It is the same Christ preached to gentiles that was preached to Israel; granted a resurrected one, but nonetheless the same gospel.

And your point is? How is related in your opinion to whether the Christians are Under the Mosaic law?

[JehovahsWitness]

Paul is also very clear that the law is "established".

Yes and he was equally clear when it was abolished.

ROMANS 10:4
For Christ is the end of the Law - NWT

EPHESIANS 2:15
By means of his flesh he [Jesus] abolished the emnity, the law of commandements consisting in decrees - NWT

"He did this by ending the system of law with its commandments and regulations." - NLT

ROMANS 7:6
But now we have been released from the Law [...]

[sawthelight]

Paul is also very clear that the law is "established".

Yes and he was equally clear when it was abolished.

ROMANS 10:4
For Christ is the end of the Law - NWT

EPHESIANS 2:15
By means of his flesh he [Jesus] abolished the emnity, the law of commandements consisting in decrees - NWT

"He did this by ending the system of law with its commandments and regulations." - NLT

ROMANS 7:6
But now we have been released from the Law [...]

Says the one who claims he is not a Bible literalist.

Well I guess you're being literal here with the Bible.

[shnarkle]

A long time ago before people used to carry credit cards around in their wallets, they used to use gold and silver as a medium of exchange. They would give their gold to the blacksmiths to hold. The blacksmiths were the go-to people because they could melt the recently mined metal into bars that could more easily be measured for weight and purity. So people would just naturally have the blacksmiths hold their gold as well and they would get a receipt, which eventually they began to use instead of the gold. The blacksmiths began to see that they could lend out receipts and collect interest on these loans which enabled them to make money on gold they didn't even have. When people figured this out they would run to the blacksmith to collect their gold and those who got their last got nothing but an itchy trigger finger.

The secular law outlawed this deception as it was outright theft. Theft is also outlawed in the bible, but sometimes people come up with new ways to steal so secular law has to come up with laws that address each example that those with imagination come up with. The biblical law doesn't need to do this because theft is theft.

More to the point. in our lust for progress, secular law has now legalized this theft all over the world. This is very close to what we have with fractional reserve Central banking system. The only big difference is that we aren't dealing with blacksmiths anymore, and legally the money isn't even the property of those who deposit it. The bank owns it and can do whatever it wants with it including gamble with it. If they win, they collect the profit. If they lose, the tax payers pay them back. Gotta love progress, especially if you're a banker.

That is a good point. Bankers pretty much own the system now but you got to pick your poison, which will it be?

GMO in probably everything.

Maybe what you're eating, it's not in my food. I started growing my own when I found out it not only tastes better, but it's a lot less time and effort wasted in not having to drive into town, wait in lines, and drive all the way back home.

Who knows how clean our water is.

Mines from a private well; tested it a few times, not cheap either, but I can rest peacefully knowing it hasn't been tainted at least not yet.

How about the chemical governments spray in the air?

You might want to think about that one for a few days, maybe a few years if you have to. Think about it. Why would the government spray chemicals in the same air that they breathe? They'd be killing themselves, right? Wrong. If you know what's in the those "chemicals" then all you need to do is get the correct formula to protect yourself.

Everywhere you go is potential to die of poison or cancer.

Perhaps, but those who choose to live in cleaner environments, eat a healthier diet, and live a healthier lifestyle are better suited to not only survive, but thrive. Think about this. What is going to happen after the government kills off all the losers who are either too stupid or too lazy to have enough sense to take care of themselves? Let's say that you were to get your act together and lo and behold you're healthy and able to ward off all the government has to throw at you. You're one of the bright ones the government wants people like you around.

Yet we progressed.

Some progress further than others.

[shnarkle]

Paul is also very clear that the law is "established".

Yes and he was equally clear when it was abolished.



ROMANS 10:4
For Christ is the end of the Law - NWT

EPHESIANS 2:15
By means of his flesh he [Jesus] abolished the emnity, the law of commandements consisting in decrees - NWT

"He did this by ending the system of law with its commandments and regulations." - NLT

ROMANS 7:6
But now we have been released from the Law [...]

So, pray tell, did Paul establish the law in order to end it, or did he end it in order to establish it? I suspect you'd have to go for the former, but the question remains, why establish it just to end it?

You're really going to have to come up with more than that to build a case. How about starting a thread on the subject? Get it all out there in context. I'll give it the attention it deserves. Although I may need you to pm me cause I'm not very good at navigating around this place yet.

[sawthelight]

[Replying to post 24 by shnarkle]

That's good for you if you make your own food and do everything for yourself. Nothing wrong with that. You'll probably live longer than me.

Here's the thing though. I would do what you are doing and co-exist with sharks rather than waste my life with religion.

So keep up the good work!

[shnarkle]

The Mosaic law did not exist when Joseph was alive, so there was no prohibition on removal facial hair. The Mosaic law did include laws regarding dress and grooming.

Did Adam and Eve, Cain, etc. not know what they had done was against God's law? Did Noah, not know the difference between clean and unclean animals? This was before Moses received the law as well.

As I said, the grooming laws (and the Sabbath) were all part of the Mosaic law which was transmitted to Moses. Adam, Eve Cain lived long before this event.

And yet, they all knew the law. Not only did they know the law, but God let them have it when they transgressed his law. Paul also points out that those who are outside the law are judged outside the law. Why? Because they have been given a conscience to do what is right according to the law.

Did Noah, not know the difference between clean and unclean animals?

Noah was given some laws regarding animals and blood. Nothing was mentioned regarding his beard.

God told Noah to gather up seven pairs of clean animals and one pair of unclean. This was long before God gave Noah any laws. This is a direct reference to the dietary laws. Just because God doesn't mention all laws in every chapter of each book doesn't mean that these people don't know the law. God says nothing about bestiality in the new testament; is that why so many Christians are into that stuff?

The Sabbath was created on the seventh day

God rested on the seventh day, he made no mention of a law in this regard and there is no biblical record of any of the Patriarchs observing a Sabbath.

Christ states: "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" So evidently you think God would make Abraham go through everything he had to do without ever letting him know about a day of rest? God showed Abraham that he would be the patriarch of massive people that would produce the messiah. He made this covenant with Abraham and neglected to show him the courtesy of being able to rest on a day that was meant for him to rest on? I'm not buying it for a second. God would never be so stingy.

Israel had barely crossed the Red Sea before God in disgust asked them "How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws"?

What scripture are you referring to? The law was adopted not too long after the nation crossed the red sea. In any case if you give me a reference I can be more precise.

You'd be better off just reading the first 15 chapters because God gives them all sorts of laws before he gives them the law on Mt Sinai. Then again, what's the point if you don't care about all the laws God gave to everyone else before as well?

Do you see a pattern here yet?

Do you? If you would like to make a point, then I will be more than happy to say if I agree with it or not.

The point Is that God is giving out all sorts of laws. If you believe that the flood was a worldwide and Noah and his family were the only one's saved, then you should be able to see that the Noahide laws are contingent Noah's family and all their descendants; on everyone.

"One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that soruorneth among you." exodus 12:49

This was part of the Mosaic law referring to those living within the borders of their nation (during the time when those laws were in force).

Yep, and the quote from Paul points out that you are grafted into those roots. They didn't believe so they got yanked out, and if you want to try it the same way that they did, Paul says you'll get yanked out as well.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 24 by shnarkle]

That's good for you if you make your own food and do everything for yourself. Nothing wrong with that. You'll probably live longer than me.

Here's the thing though. I would do what you are doing and co-exist with sharks rather than waste my life with religion.

So keep up the good work!

I co-exist with both and waste my life with neither.

[JehovahsWitness]

Do you see a pattern here yet?
The point Is that God is giving out all sorts of laws. If you believe that the flood was a worldwide and Noah and his family were the only one's saved, then you should be able to see that the Noahide laws are contingent Noah's family and all their descendants; on everyone.

I see where there is a confusion. Correct me if I am wrong but it seems to me you believe I was saying God gave no laws prior to the Mosaic law code transmitted by Moses to the newly formed Nation of Israel. If that is the case, I will clarify, that is not what I was implying at all.

When I refer to "The Mosaic Law code" I am refering specfically to the 613 laws (including the 10 commandements) transmitted through Moses an inaugorated at Mount Sinai in 1513 BCE. This body of laws included specific régulations regarding diet, dress and grooming (which was the original point Under discussion), as well as prohibitions on sexual misconduct and the use of blood sacrifices.

Does that mean that God did not communicate ANY other laws prior to this date? No, there was a specific law mentioned to Adam and, as you rightly point out, laws mentioned to Noah (Patriachal law). The bible encylopedia Insight on the Scriptures Vol II p. 212 comments

Laws to Noah; Patriarchal Law. Noah was given commandments relative to the building of the ark and the saving of his family. (Ge 6:22) After the Flood he was given laws that allowed the adding of flesh to man’s diet; declared the sacredness of life and therefore of blood, in which is the life; prohibited the eating of blood; condemned murder; and instituted capital punishment for this crime.—Ge 9:3-6.

source*: http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002694#h=8

* you can read about more specifics by clicking on the source link.


The Patriarchs such as Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were surely aware of biblical pattens such as those set by God's resting on the Sabbath and the précédents of blood sacrifice first set by Abel, but does his mean that they had already received the hundreds and hundreds of laws that were to govern the nation of Israel thousands of years before that nation was to exit? There is no indication that was the case.

CONCLUSION: When the bible refers to "law" or "God's law(s)" it may indeed be refering to any number of regulations communicated to God's people down through the ages, whether that be through their inborn consciences or through divine revelation. The Mosaic law code encompassed many of the previous laws and principles that were in existence but also introduced some that were entirely new (such as dress codes that prohibited mixing fabrics or prohibitions from shaving ones beard).





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[sawthelight]

I co-exist with both and waste my life with neither.

Yes! There you go!