Eternal Hell

[amortalman]

I have two questions primarily for Christians.

1) If your brand of religion teaches that unbelievers will be judged by God and cast into Hell and the Lake of Fire for eternity to suffer there with no possibility of death or escape, is this action by God a just punishment, and why?

2) The second question is purely hypothetical and reaches way out there. If your God gave you permission to do as you please concerning eternal Hell, to keep it, or to abolish it in favor of, say, annihilation, would you keep it or do away with it?

NOTE: In regards to question number one I'm thinking about the story told by Jesus of the rich man and Lazarus found in Luke chapter 16. The Lake of Fire is mentioned in Revelation 20:10-15 and 21:8.

To me, an eternity of suffering in Hell defies logic and any sense of compassion what-so-ever. During my years as a Christian in an evangelical church, I've heard many preachers preface a sermon on Hell by saying they don't like to talk about it and don't like the concept of it but they must preach it because that's what the Bible teaches. I was once a part of a Biblical teaching program for children 2nd through 6th grade. I can only imagine the nightmares some of them had after being told that without Jesus they would go to Hell forever. Someone might argue that it's better that than to go to Hell. But does the fear tactic really work, and if it does, is that the best way, to scare the hell out of them?

In my understanding of the Bible, and what is being taught to millions of people in evangelical churches around the world, there are two kinds of people who will be cast into Hell. Those who have never heard the gospel and those how have rejected the gospel after having heard it. According to that teaching, there are countless millions of poor souls being tormented in Hell right now because they never had an opportunity to hear about Christ. Furthermore, there are hundreds if not thousands that are dying every day and going to Hell for lack of an opportunity to decide. Is that just?

Finally, I'm hopeful that the second question will cut to the Christians heart concerning the doctrine of Hell and reveal the insanity of it. To me, someone who would keep Hell if given the chance to abolish it is a Sadist of the worse kind. But then again, if a Christian says that he would do away with Hell is he demonstrating that he is more merciful than God?

What say you?

[Divine Insight]

What hell? If you mean hades/sheol - the grave, the world of the dead, then in that place the dead are conscious of nothing, and are awaiting the resurrection of the dead. Only after that resurrection are the dead judged (according to what they have done as written in their individual scrolls). If you mean the "Christian" place of eternal torture and suffering, then such a place does not exist.

Please see my earlier post. (Of course, you and I have discussed this before I think).

I thought in this thread we were assuming that its the Christian position that hell does exist? And Christians who don't believe in hell are simply rebelling against mainstream Christian orthodoxy.

He did not lie about anything, but that is another topic.

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Even taking hell out of the picture and replacing it with a temporary death where people will then be resurrected and "judged" there would still be a contradiction between Matthew 13:11 and John 12:47 because in John 12:47 Jesus proclaims that he came to "Save the World". Yet according to Matthew 13:11 he is withholding important information from people proclaiming that it's not given for them.

So it doesn't matter whether there's a hell in the picture of just a death with a later judgement. Jesus is still contradicting himself. In one moment he's proclaiming that he came to save the world, and the next he's purposefully keeping valuable information from people that could potentially save them.

If Jesus has a message for mankind why isn't he making this message available to everyone with absolute clarity? Why is this message not available for some people?

I think that's a valid question to ask whether damnation is eternal torture or a mere death. That shouldn't make any difference anyway. Even death is considered to be "damnation" in this religion and is highly undesirable.

After all, isn't that what Jesus is supposed to be saving us from?

So did he come to save the world as he proclaimed in John 12:47, or did he only come to save a selected few whilst hiding the secrets of salvation from the masses as Matthew 13:11 clearly suggests?

I'm just trying to get a straight answer.

[tam]

What hell? If you mean hades/sheol - the grave, the world of the dead, then in that place the dead are conscious of nothing, and are awaiting the resurrection of the dead. Only after that resurrection are the dead judged (according to what they have done as written in their individual scrolls). If you mean the "Christian" place of eternal torture and suffering, then such a place does not exist.

Please see my earlier post. (Of course, you and I have discussed this before I think).

I thought in this thread we were assuming that its the Christian position that hell does exist? And Christians who don't believe in hell are simply rebelling against mainstream Christian orthodoxy.

I don't think anyone was assuming your second point.

I do think the questions were meant for those who did believe in the mainstream doctrine of hell. I did answer the second question, hypothetically speaking, from that point of view.

He did not lie about anything, but that is another topic.

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Even taking hell out of the picture and replacing it with a temporary death where people will then be resurrected and "judged" there would still be a contradiction between Matthew 13:11 and John 12:47 because in John 12:47 Jesus proclaims that he came to "Save the World". Yet according to Matthew 13:11 he is withholding important information from people proclaiming that it's not given for them.

He spoke in parables. But that does not mean that those people who were blind and did not understand, cannot or will not be invited into the Kingdom and also receive life, at the resurrection of the dead. (or at some other point in their lives if they turned to Christ and said, "blessed is He who comes in the name of Jah"). The judgment after the resurrection of the dead is for those who did not take part in the FIRST resurrection (as did those who belong to Christ, for whom there is no judgment).

The first and second resurrection are both written about in Revelation. The first resurrection is for those who belong to Christ. The second resurrection is for (most) all of those who have died from the beginning (other than those who belong to Christ because these ones were already resurrected).

Those who do not belong to Christ are judged according to what is written in their individual scrolls; and/or according to how they treated even a least one who belongs to Christ (from the sheep and the goats parable).

So it doesn't matter whether there's a hell in the picture of just a death with a later judgement. Jesus is still contradicting himself. In one moment he's proclaiming that he came to save the world, and the next he's purposefully keeping valuable information from people that could potentially save them.

You are assuming that just because they were blind at that point, they would always be blind. You are also assuming that the consequence for that blindness will be eternal torment in hell (or eternal death).

You are not considering Paul's words that all Israel will be saved, and that Israel has experienced a temporary hardness.

If Jesus has a message for mankind why isn't he making this message available to everyone with absolute clarity? Why is this message not available for some people?

I think that's a valid question to ask whether damnation is eternal torture or a mere death. That shouldn't make any difference anyway. Even death is considered to be "damnation" in this religion and is highly undesirable.

Some people don't WANT to hear or see the truth. Their hearts are too hard. This does not mean it is or will always be that way.

So did he come to save the world as he proclaimed in John 12:47, or did he only come to save a selected few whilst hiding the secrets of salvation from the masses as Matthew 13:11 clearly suggests?

He came to save the world. But although many are called, few are chosen. This is for those who belong to Christ as His Bride, however, whom He shares His rule with, so that they rule as kings and priests with Him in His Kingdom. These are FEW.

But there are more than just these who enter the Kingdom.

Israel was being offered the first (to be the bride, to rule as kings and priests in the Kingdom with Christ). Much of Israel did not accept Him. But all of Israel will be saved.

I'm just trying to get a straight answer.

Sure. But there are a lot of false teachings out there that make it very hard for some people to understand the straight answer. Because they are looking at sources other than Christ for the truth; and also because some of them do not WANT to hear the truth (if it means that what they want to believe, what they have invested themselves into believing, is untrue).


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Divine Insight]

You are assuming that just because they were blind at that point, they would always be blind. You are also assuming that the consequence for that blindness will be eternal torment in hell (or eternal death).

I'm not assuming anything. I'm asking whether Jesus was telling the TRUTH when he said that he came "save the world".

From what you have been explaining thus far some people will need to save themselves via what's written upon their own scroll of life.

So that still seems to be in conflict with Jesus proclaiming that he came to "save the world'.

So thus far you have not clarified anything but have only confirmed the problems I've already pointed out.

Those who do not belong to Christ are judged according to what is written in their individual scrolls; and/or according to how they treated even a least one who belongs to Christ (from the sheep and the goats parable).

See, you are suggesting that many people will need to earn their own salvation via what is written upon their individual scrolls. This also violates many orthodox beliefs that the only way to the Father is by Christ. But if some people will be judged based on their own behavior then those people will have come to the Father by their own actions.

In fact, if I'm giving that choice I much prefer to be judged on my own merit. I have no desire for undeserved salvation being handed to me for no good reason. Paul also preached that no man should be able to achieve salvation on his own merit lest in heaven he would be able to boast. Personally I think that's pretty silly, but I'm just mentioning it because Paul thought it was pretty serious stuff.

You are not considering Paul's words that all Israel will be saved, and that Israel has experienced a temporary hardness

And you aren't considering Paul's words that no one can achieve salvation by their own works lest they can boast.

Ephesians 2:
[8] For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
[9] Not of works, lest any man should boast.

But you have just stated earlier that these people will be judged by what is written in their individual scrolls; and/or according to how they treated even a least one who belongs to Christ.

If that's the case then they have the ability to gain entrance into heaven based on their own merit and works. And surely many of them would pass. After all, why bother with a judgment at all if no one is ever going to pass the judgment? :-K

So you are allowing that people can obtain eternal life on their own merit even though they never acknowledged or recognized Christ.

And this is still problematic with Jesus having said that he came to "save the world". Clearly there will be people who will save themselves by their own actions.

Some people don't WANT to hear or see the truth. Their hearts are too hard. This does not mean it is or will always be that way.

This isn't a valid answer to my question. Jesus said that this information is not given to them. He didn't say that they won't WANT it. Wouldn't they need to be given the information first, and allow them to reject it if they don't want it?

He came to save the world. But although many are called, few are chosen. This is for those who belong to Christ as His Bride, however, whom He shares His rule with, so that they rule as kings and priests with Him in His Kingdom. These are FEW.

But there are more than just these who enter the Kingdom.

Israel was being offered the first (to be the bride, to rule as kings and priests in the Kingdom with Christ). Much of Israel did not accept Him. But all of Israel will be saved

This is really getting complicated now. If this is the case then the idea that everyone needs to seek Jesus as their savior is ridiculous. Only those who lust to become rulers and rule over others need apply.

I most certainly have no desire to become a king, priest, or ruler. So then according the the theology you are suggesting I'm far better off just waiting for judgement day and going by what's written on my scroll of life.

In fact, I would have no problem with this at all. If human compassion and decency is the main criteria being judged I have reason to think that I would not pass with flying colors.

And if those who seek out Jesus are the ones who lust to be kings, priests, or rulers, then I'm not interested in any of those positions anyway.

I just want to live an let live in peace.

I'm just trying to get a straight answer.

Sure. But there are a lot of false teachings out there that make it very hard for some people to understand the straight answer. Because they are looking at sources other than Christ for the truth; and also because some of them do not WANT to hear the truth (if it means that what they want to believe, what they have invested themselves into believing, is untrue).

I have no desire to become a king, priest, or ruler in any kingdom. And according to you that will be the destiny of the FEW that Christ will choose.

So based on what you've just told me I'm far better off just waiting for judgment day and being accepted on my own merit. I have absolutely no reason whatsoever that any decent God would find me undesirable to live in a world where love, compassion and decency are the favored characteristic of its citizens. I certainly don't need Jesus for that.

And according to you I'm right. I already had it right. Jesus is looking to pick his "cabinet" kind of like Donald Trump just did. I have desire to be part of Jesus' cabinet. I'm not interested in being part of the ruling class.

I also don't understand why there should be any need for rulers in a heaven where the only people who will be permitted to enter are those who are loving, compassionate, and just want to live in peace. Why the need for government or police in a world where only decent people are permitted in?

What are all these "rulers" going to be doing?

There shouldn't be any criminals there that they would need to be ruled over. The nasty people should have all been weeded out on judgment day.

And that itself is yet another contradiction with this whole mythological paradigm.

Why would there need to be Kings and Rulers in heaven?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 18 by JehovahsWitness] I have studied the Bible extensively, some would say obsessively and in my opinion Jesus did teach an eternal suffering in hell for those who did not accept him.

That may be the case, but you are wrong : Jesus did not teach eternal suffering in hell. Many conclude so because they reject or have little concept of metaphoric speech and are not aware that the bible does not teach that we have an immortal invisible soul that escapes the body at death but rather that the dead can "know nothing" because they do not exist. One can no more feel pain after death than one could before conception.

When you couple not knowing what the word "soul" refers to in scripture (having been taught only by their religious leaders that its Something invisible Inside the body) with not knowing that "hell" in the bible is simply reference to the symbolic common grave of mankind (where both good and bad people go) and combine that with not knowing what a metaphor is, it is easy for people to be misguided and manipulated by religious propaganda.

But the dark ages are over, the internet is available, google is king, and many getting themselvs an education as to the meaning of bible words independent of the shackles imposed on their thinking by the religious ministers of their youth.

JW



HE BIBLE TEACHES BOTH GOOD AND BAD PEOPLE GO TO HELL not to be tormented but to "wait" inconscious, inactive, inexistent (except in the memory of those that love them) until God "recreates" them (resurrection).

GOOD MAN JOB SAID ...
" Who will grant me this, that thou mayst protect me IN HELL, and hide me till thy wrath pass, and appoint me a. time when thou wilt remember me? " -- Job 14: 13 (Catholic Douay Version)

GOOD MAN JACOB SAID....
"And all his children being gathered together to comfort their father in his sorrow, he would not receive comfort, but said: I will go down to my son INTO HELL, mourning. " -- Jacob (Genesis 37: 35 - Catholic Douay Version)

ABOUT GOOD MAN KING DAVID...
"Therefore my heart is glad and my glory rejoiceth; my flesh also shall rest in hope. For thou will not leave my soul in HELL..." -- Good King David's Words (see Psalms 16: 10 King James Version)


THE BIBLE ASSOCIATES DEATH NOT WITH CONSCIOUS ACTIVITY OR PAIN BUT WITH INACTIVITY AND UNCONSCIOUSNESS

Ecclesiastes 9:5 "For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all" -- New World Translation

Ecclesiastes 9:10 "Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in THE GRAVE, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom." -- New International Version (©1984)


Douay-Rheims Bible: Whatsoever thy hand is able to do, do it earnestly: for neither work, nor reason, nor wisdom, nor knowledge shall be in HELL, whither thou art hastening.

Eccl. 9:5, 10: "The living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all . . . All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in SHEOL,* the place to which you are going." (*"Sheol," AS, RS, NE, JB; "THE GRAVE," KJ, Kx; "HELL," Dy; "the world of the dead," TEV.)

Psalms 146: 3, 4: "... the son of earthling man, [...] His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground;In that day his thoughts do perish. "

Ezekiel 18:4 The soul that is sinning - it itself will die.

In poetic speech, Job associates death with inexistence and inactivity he likened being dead to evaporated water = inexistent; a dried river = inexistent; a man that lies down = inactivity and sleep= inacitivity

Job 14:11-15 NASB wrote:
" As water evaporates from the sea/And a river becomes parched and dried up, So man lies down and does not rise/Until the heavens are no longer/He will not awake nor be aroused out of his SLEEP.

[tam]

[Replying to post 43 by Divine Insight]

Christ is the reason they are ABLE to come back to life (regardless of whether they belong to Him as His bride, or if they are like the sheep, from the sheep and the goats parable).


No one can resurrect themselves, regardless of what they do or who they belong to. No one can free themselves from death. No one can give themselves eternal life. No one can sustain themselves forever. Christ is the One who gives us life.


So there is no contradiction. Because of what some do (or have done), Christ invites them into the Kingdom as well, where they too may eat from the tree of life and live forever. But this too is mercy and love toward them. They did not get there on their own, and they could not be resurrected (brought to life and freed from death) without Him.



**

And yes, you are assuming things. You are assuming that those who were/are blind at any given time... receive eternal torment or eternal death. Where do you get that from the verse speaking about why He speaks to the people in parables? Does it state that He speaks to them in parables so that they will receive eternal torment or eternal death? Or are you adding that, yourself?

You are using the bible as your source, and yet that book has Paul stating that all Israel will be saved, so that would include those of Israel who 'seeing, did not see'. So since such ones were also Israel - and all Israel will be saved - obviously the verse that you are using does not mean what you are suggesting. Not even according to the book you are using as your source.

This is really getting complicated now. If this is the case then the idea that everyone needs to seek Jesus as their savior is ridiculous. Only those who lust to become rulers and rule over others need apply.

A - those who love Christ and belong to Him hear, follow and obey Him. BECAUSE they love Him. That is the case for me, and for those I know. I did not even know that some would be kings and priests with Him in His Kingdom. I simply loved Him.

B - Christ is the King, but this King served the people. We who belong to Him follow His example.


But God's mercy is greater even than that, and Christ sits in the mercy seat, so those who have proven NOT to be His enemies, but who have proven otherwise - that they have love upon their hearts - will also be invited in.



And it does not matter if you do not understand what those king-priests will be doing and how they will be serving. (even if it is simply out of LOVE for them that Christ shares His Kingdom with them) You are using the bible as your source from which to argue, and that source states that some are kings and priests with Christ in His Kingdom.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Divine Insight]

No one can resurrect themselves

That would include Christ himself. Supposedly Yahweh is the one who rose Christ from the dead.

So there is no contradiction. Because of what some do (or have done), Christ invites them into the Kingdom as well, where they too may eat from the tree of life and live forever. But this too is mercy and love toward them. They did not get there on their own, and they could not be resurrected (brought to life and freed from death) without Him.

But there is a contradiction. They are getting there on their own works. And this certainly contradict the teachings of Paul.

Moreover, if they got there by their own works then it still wouldn't be Jesus who "saved" them. It would merely be Jesus who supposedly resurrected them. They would have still "saved" themselves from damnation via their own works.

So you are just in denial of the contradictions here.

And yes, you are assuming things. You are assuming that those who were/are blind at any given time... receive eternal torment or eternal death. Where do you get that from the verse speaking about why He speaks to the people in parables? Does it state that He speaks to them in parables so that they will receive eternal torment or eternal death? Or are you adding that, yourself?

We've already settled this. You have proclaimed that these people will pass or fail on judgement day based on what's written on their own scroll remember?

And this means that they had "saved themselves from damnation" via their own works. This would not be Jesus saving them.

You are using the bible as your source, and yet that book has Paul stating that all Israel will be saved, so that would include those of Israel who 'seeing, did not see'. So since such ones were also Israel - and all Israel will be saved - obviously the verse that you are using does not mean what you are suggesting. Not even according to the book you are using as your source.

You are already in discord with the teaching of Paul remember? Paul proclaims that none can be saved by their own works lest they can boast. And you have them being saved based on what's on their own scroll of life. So you're already in disagreement with Paul. No point in bringing him up anymore.

This is really getting complicated now. If this is the case then the idea that everyone needs to seek Jesus as their savior is ridiculous. Only those who lust to become rulers and rule over others need apply.

A - those who love Christ and belong to Him hear, follow and obey Him. BECAUSE they love Him. That is the case for me, and for those I know. I did not even know that some would be kings and priests with Him in His Kingdom. I simply loved Him.

You loved him? If that's true then he must have met YOUR APPROVAL. Not the other way around.

B - Christ is the King, but this King served the people. We who belong to Him follow His example.

But the only reason you belong to him is because you love him. And that can only be because he has earned YOUR APPROVAL. Otherwise why would you love him?

Do you love Satan as much? If not, why not? Do you not approve of Satan?

But God's mercy is greater even than that, and Christ sits in the mercy seat, so those who have proven NOT to be His enemies, but who have proven otherwise - that they have love upon their hearts - will also be invited in.

Well, there you go. Then there's no need to believe in Jesus, or in Christianity, or in Yahweh. All you need to do is not be the enemy of Jesus. Well duh? Unless Jesus is some sort of hateful monster why should any decent person be considered his enemy?

So once again, no decent person should need to believe in Jesus.

And it does not matter if you do not understand what those king-priests will be doing and how they will be serving. (even if it is simply out of LOVE for them that Christ shares His Kingdom with them) You are using the bible as your source from which to argue, and that source states that some are kings and priests with Christ in His Kingdom.

But that source is filled with extreme self-contradictions from cover to cover. So nothing it states can be believed since it will just contradict itself on the very next page anyway.

In fact, look at John 12:48

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Can you point to any words that Jesus had spoken where he says that any decent loving person will be condemned?

If not, then from John 12:48 it should be crystal clear that rejecting Jesus and his words is perfectly acceptable to Jesus. Acknowledging Jesus in any way cannot be important for any decent loving person. Unless you can find words attributed to Jesus where he proclaims that decent loving people will be cast into everlasting punishment if they merely fail to believe in him. But if you find those words, you will have just found a contradiction to John 12:48 and you will have Jesus contradicting himself.

So it can't be important to believe in Jesus even if he was the Son of God. By his own words it's not important to believe in him. You can reject him and his works and you'll still be just fine as long as you are a decent loving person.

Why Christians need to insist that Jesus is a hateful monster who is chomping at the bit to condemn anyone who doesn't believe in him is beyond me. John 12:48 clearly states otherwise.

What you should be telling me, and should have told me months ago, is that if I am a loving compassionate person I'm home free with Jesus and there's no need for me to jump through any religious or dogmatic hoops beyond that. There is absolutely no need for me to acknowledge Jesus to be anything more than a Hebrew myth. That is totally unimportant to salvation even according to Jesus himself in John 12:48.

You should be telling me about John 12:48 instead of me having to point it out to you.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 44 by JehovahsWitness] After the resurrection from their graves Jesus indicates that the reprobate are to be thrown into another place other than where they had been.

Matthew 25:41
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 42 by tam] Why would God harden anyone especially his chosen people against accepting Jesus? Paul indicates that all Israel will be saved but what is his definition of Israel?

God’s Sovereign Choice

6 It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.� 8 In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9 For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.�[c]

10 Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.�[d] 13 Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.�[e]

14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.�[f]
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.�[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?� 20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’�[h] 21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?

22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory—

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 37 by 2timothy316] You keep accusing me of leading the text. lets have an experiment. Here is a text

Joshua 11:19-21New International Version (NIV)

19 Except for the Hivites living in Gibeon, not one city made a treaty of peace with the Israelites, who took them all in battle. 20 For it was the Lord himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the Lord had commanded Moses.

21 At that time Joshua went and destroyed the Anakites from the hill country: from Hebron, Debir and Anab, from all the hill country of Judah, and from all the hill country of Israel. Joshua totally destroyed them and their towns.

Seems self explanatory. God desired to exterminate every man woman and child in the promised land. Obviously when faced with certain destruction the people would surrender. It wouldn't be fair and indeed against Gods code of conduct in the Law for the Israelites to kill those who surrendered. Therefore God stepped in to harden the resolve of the defenders in order that the Israelites could kill them all or nearly all.
Am I leading the text?

Yes you are leading the text. You've taken a scripture and prefaced it with predestination.

We have to take into account the whole book of Joshua. What 'made' their hearts hardened? The Canaanites were not ignorant of the powerful evidence that Israel was God’s chosen people and instrument. Rahab said, "All the inhabitants of the land are disheartened because of you." (Jos 2:9-21, 24; 9:24-27) However, with the exception of Rahab and her family and the cities of the Gibeonites, those who came in for destruction neither sought mercy nor availed themselves of the opportunity to flee, but instead they chose to harden themselves in rebellion against Jehovah.

So how did God 'make' their hearts hardened? It was the victories that they had heard about that made their already rebellious hearts even more hardened. They knew the Hebrews were headed their way. Jehovah made no move to change their hearts was because these people were sacrificers of children, arrogant and extremely violent. It wasn't that Jehovah got into their heads and made them hard hearted. The Canaanites were already hard hearted and the reports of Joshua's victories from Jehovah made them even more so. Therefore it can be said that Jehovah made their hearts hardened through Joshua's victories and God made no attempt to intervene to soften their hearts so Jehovah can show His power over wicked nations.

As I said, I don't have any problems with anything the Bible says. I don't have preconceived ideas as I read the Bible or burdened by doctrines that I have to find ways to make the Bible support.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 49 by 2timothy316] Good Grief!!!!!! You accuse me of leading the text and you engage in that bit of apologetic acrobatic stunt. God desired a genocidal cleansing of the land. He didn't want the Israelites looking over their shoulders forever.

Deuteronomy 6:10-12New International Version (NIV)

10 When the Lord your God brings you into the land he swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, to give you—a land with large, flourishing cities you did not build, 11 houses filled with all kinds of good things you did not provide, wells you did not dig, and vineyards and olive groves you did not plant—then when you eat and are satisfied, 12 be careful that you do not forget the Lord, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.