Was Jesus' death necessary? If so, why?

[Justin108]

Was Jesus' death necessary? In what way did Jesus' death/sacrifice benefit humanity? Could God not achieve what he intended without Jesus dying?

[postroad]

[Replying to post 10 by 1213] Nothing survives from the Disciples ministry. You have the gospel according to Paul.

[Willum]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

His death

- vindicated His father's sovereignty
- cleared his Father's name of the reproach heaped on it (Sanctification of Jehovah's Name)
- Opened the way for the forgiveness of Adamic sin and the resulting lifting of the oppressive weight of sin and death
- No, there was no way for this to be rightfully achieved without a life for life (blood) sacrifice.

And then God, the trinity, if you will, itself died. Such a tragedy.

Such noble goals, defeat of death, defeat of evil, paradise... all dashed to the side by forces incomprehensible to even God.

But, even if you are God, you should be leery of declaring war on death and evil. Death is enigmatic and evil is subtle. Making war on them was foolish, and He will be missed.

[Youkilledkenny]

[Replying to post 1 by Justin108]

Any god (or God) that needs or wants for anything (including, but not limited to 'need this for that' to happen or 'wants X to love them') isn't much of a god as far as I'm concerned.
Both a need and want strikes me as something very human. Why would a thing that created everything, knows everything, is everywhere (blah blah blah) would have any want or need? That points to something missing from their 'life'. That's not a god to me
So I don't think the biblical god needs or wants anything. Nothing we could do would change its plan or impact it in any way.

[Elijah John]

Was Jesus' death necessary? In what way did Jesus' death/sacrifice benefit humanity? Could God not achieve what he intended without Jesus dying?

Yes, I believe that Jesus' death was absolutely necessary.

His death

- vindicated His father's sovereignty
- cleared his Father's name of the reproach heaped on it (Sanctification of Jehovah's Name)
- Opened the way for the forgiveness of Adamic sin and the resulting lifting of the oppressive weight of sin and death
- No, there was no way for this to be rightfully achieved without a life for life (blood) sacrifice.



JW

[YouTube][/youtube]

What if there were no literal Adam and Eve, no literal Garden fall, would Jesus still have needed to die to "pay for" the sins of humanity?

What if there is no such thing as "inherited guilt". (Original sin.)

Does Pauline blood-atonment theology depend entirely on these literal understandings?

[Justin108]

His death

- vindicated His father's sovereignty

How exactly did his death vindicate his father's sovereignty?

- cleared his Father's name of the reproach heaped on it (Sanctification of Jehovah's Name)

Again, how did his death achieve this?

- Opened the way for the forgiveness of Adamic sin and the resulting lifting of the oppressive weight of sin and death

Why could God not forgive us without Jesus dying?

- No, there was no way for this to be rightfully achieved without a life for life (blood) sacrifice.

Considering God's omnipotence, this statement makes no sense

[JehovahsWitness]

- No, there was no way for this to be rightfully achieved without a life for life (blood) sacrifice.

Considering God's omnipotence, this statement makes no sense

If you notice I said "rightfully" or justifiably. God never violates his own principles of what is just and right nor does he go back on his word, so in order to forgive the sin incurred by Adam the debt of that sin had to be paid for. The price for sin is death, God had already stated this to be the case.


Further reading: Jehovah Provides “a Ransom in Exchange for Many�
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... sacrifice/

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 16 by JehovahsWitness]

I don't know if you saw my earlier question, JW, so I'll re-ask it here.

Let's pretend that God just forgave Adam and Eve right then and there, when they ate the fruit.
Would you be here arguing that God can't do that, that a death of one kind or another had to be offered to pay the debt, that there in fact is a debt at all?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 16 by JehovahsWitness]

I don't know if you saw my earlier question, JW, so I'll re-ask it here.

Let's pretend that God just forgave Adam and Eve right then and there, when they ate the fruit.
Would you be here arguing that God can't do that, that a death of one kind or another had to be offered to pay the debt, that there in fact is a debt at all?

"Can't" for God is always "chooses never to", but yes that is exactly right.

I don't know if you saw my earlier post, so I'll post a link to it here. It contains an explanation and a link.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 939#845939

[Elijah John]

- No, there was no way for this to be rightfully achieved without a life for life (blood) sacrifice.

Considering God's omnipotence, this statement makes no sense

If you notice I said "rightfully" or justifiably. God never violates his own principles of what is just and right nor does he go back on his word, so in order to forgive the sin incurred by Adam the debt of that sin had to be paid for. The price for sin is death, God had already stated this to be the case.

One huge problem with that, YHVH via Ezkiel contradicts you and your organization's party line (that sin must be "paid for" with blood). Your Pauline, RCC theological orthodoxy is demonstrably wrong in this case as proven by this here verse: (and others)

New International Version Ez 33.11)

Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?'

"TURN" i.e. simple repentance.

Seems simple repentance IS enough, and that sin does NOT need to be "paid for" with blood.

YHVH is far more forgiving and far less legalistic and bloodthirsty than you JW's and Evangelicals make him out to be.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 18 by JehovahsWitness]

By seemingly thwarting God’s purpose to fill the earth with righteous humans, Satan also labeled God a failure. (Genesis 1:28; Isaiah 55:10, 11) Had Jehovah left these challenges unanswered, many of his intelligent creatures might well have lost a measure of confidence in his rulership.

Well, I tell you what, any sentient being would lose confidence in this creature because he couldn't fix the problem immediately.

The challenges were left unanswered, in 'your' own words, Jehovah was, is, and remains trounced by Satan.

So, no, it does not answer the question, not in the very least shadow of an answer.