Jehovah’s Witnesses only ones that will be saved?????

[Donray]

Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that only 144,000 people will go to heaven. God chooses these 144,000 individuals, the process began with the first century Christians and was completed in the year 1935. Of course from 1879 (the year the Watchtower started) till 1935 only faithful Jehovah’s Witnesses were chosen for this special role. All faithful Jehovah’s Witnesses not chosen to be among the 144,000 elite that go to heaven (those joining the Watchtower after 1935) will spend eternity on earth. All other people on the earth will be destroyed at war of Armageddon here on earth. This would also include any Jehovah's Witnesses who has been disfellowshipped or is otherwise unfaithful to the Watchtower and has not worked his or her way back into the good graces of the Watchtower by the time of Armageddon.

If one believes the JWs all other Christians and everyone that is not a JW will not go to heaven or live on the Earth after Armageddon.

Question for debate is JW the only true Christin religion or is it some type of cult that calls itself Christian?

[B Bob]

[Replying to post 159 by JehovahsWitness]

One thing I have noticed about the JW doctrine and its followers. They cannot defend their position when they are take off script. They become frustrated and retreat from the scriptures. Their doctrine is simply limited to looking at scripture through a periscope that does not allow them to see the gospel of God.

You are fulfilling the scripture: see Matt 13:10-15 and missing the blessing spoken of by Jesus in Matt 13:16.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 161 by B Bob]

Well you are fully entitled to your opinion and I respect your frankness.

Be blessed,

JW

[B Bob]

[Replying to post 162 by JehovahsWitness]

I appreciate your demeanor, but this is a debate forum, not a discussion forum. It should be reasonably understood one should argue their position, not shy away from the debate once they have engaged.

May God grant us the understanding of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven.

[JehovahsWitness]

May God grant us the understanding of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven.

Amen to that!

Jehovah's Witnesses certainly believe that God grants us understanding through his spirt on that we can agree and that he does so to unravel the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven. This we believe is a precious privilege indeed.


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES believe those that go to heaven go there to rule as Kings, part of God's government (see Rev 20:6)

Is [the number 144, 000] in reference to Revelations 7:4 "And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel."?

Yes, that is exactly right. Also see Revelation 14:1


There is talk of 12 tribes of 12.000 right? Is this meant literally and literal ancestors to the 12 biblical tribes with precisely 12.000 people?


No, while Jehovah's Witnesses take the number to be literal, we do not believe the individuals spoken of are all literal descendants of Abraham or literal virgins. Much of revelation is symbolic, so we believe the number to refer to "spiritual Israelites" meaning spirit anointed Christians. As a class they are also refered to as "the bride of Christ" "heavenly Jersusalem" Christ's "brothers" "little flock" and serveral other metaphors that Jesus and his followers used as recorded in scripture.

The Jehovah's Witness view that the "bride of Christ" or that the number refers to spirit anointed Christian congregation of believers is not unusual. Nor that these individuals were promised a place to rule with Jesus in heaven. What is unusual is believing the number is literally limited to 144,000 individuals.

Why precisely this number?

The number 12 has a particular significance as it reflects the pattern set in biblical history. You will recall there were 12 sons if Jacob, that eventually made up the 12 literal tribes of Israel. Significantly Jesus chose literally 12 Apostles and revelation speaks the "new Jerusaellem" (another metaphor for the entire group) as having the names of the 12 Apostles on its foundations stones. Why 12 not 13 or ten? The reoccurance of the number *12* evidently helps us see the theme and tie the elements together, but why that particular number rather than ten or seven, that I think we will have to accept was a number of His choosing the specific reason for which is has not been given in scripture.

Math
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 030#812030

And why does the Bible not go into more detail about it?

I don't fully understand the question, do you mean more detail about "the number" or the heavenly hope? Practically everything in the "New Testatament" is directed to these "spirit anointed" chosen ones. Jesus chose the first members of this group tried to get them to grasp the notion of being resurrected to heaven. I say tried because they failed to fully grasp at the time the idea of a heavenly kingdom government to be established many thousands of years in the future but with the holy spirit understanding was eventually given.




JW


RELATED POSTS

Who are the REAL twelve tribes of Israel ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 7#p1023147

How are the 144,000 described elsewhere in scripture?
viewtopic.php?p=1021558#p1021558
(Onewithim)
viewtopic.php?p=875857#p875857

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

GOD'S KINGDOM, MILLENIAL RULE and ... THE 144, 000

[Hector Barbosa]

Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that only 144,000 people will go to heaven. God chooses these 144,000 individuals, the process began with the first century Christians and was completed in the year 1935. Of course from 1879 (the year the Watchtower started) till 1935 only faithful Jehovah’s Witnesses were chosen for this special role. All faithful Jehovah’s Witnesses not chosen to be among the 144,000 elite that go to heaven (those joining the Watchtower after 1935) will spend eternity on earth. All other people on the earth will be destroyed at war of Armageddon here on earth. This would also include any Jehovah's Witnesses who has been disfellowshipped or is otherwise unfaithful to the Watchtower and has not worked his or her way back into the good graces of the Watchtower by the time of Armageddon.

If one believes the JWs all other Christians and everyone that is not a JW will not go to heaven or live on the Earth after Armageddon.

Question for debate is JW the only true Christin religion or is it some type of cult that calls itself Christian?

[Replying to post 165 by JehovahsWitness]

Is this true JW? that the 144,000 are pre-chosen and that those outside of the 144.000 can be Jehovah's Witnesses?

Doesn't this negate the freedom to choose?

I mean what if some of the chosen chose to disobey or fall? Can they then be replaced by someone who repents?

Why would people be on earth if it's already chosen if they go to heaven or not? Couldn't God just tell everyone who made it and who didn't ahead of time and save everyone including Christ the trouble of mortal experience?

How do we define cult?

And why would God need to have an equal amount of people saved in each tribe?
What evidence is there that each tribe should have an equal amount of "good people"? Is this notion just?

I don't understand this doctrine.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 166 by Hector Barbosa]


Does it mean that anyone not among these 144.000 can be saved?

If you mean will people that are not of that group be "saved" the answer is definitely yes. To understand, you'll need to understand the bigger picture of why people have been chosen to go to heaven in the first place.


Heaven for humans was not part of God's original plan. His original purpose was stated to Adam and Eve that they live on earth (see Gen 1:28). However sadly Adam and Eve sinned and their rebellion lead to the problems of death, disease, war and suffering we see on earth today. To rectify this problem God has deemed it necessary to have a government, under the headship of his son Jesus (see Isaiah 9:6) . This government will rule over the entire territory of the earth and restore the earth to its paradise conditions. Everyone living under that government on the earth (this government is often referred to in the bible as God's kingdom) will benefit. The bible indicates there will be millions maybe billions of subjects of that government

Benerfits of kingdom (government) rule
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 788#835788


While most Christian groups teach that everyone (without limit) will go to heaven and presumably rule with Christ (or play harps for all eternity), does that really make sense? Does any government have *all* the citizens IN the government and zero subjects? If there are no subjects to a rulership, what purpose does it serve?

To illustrate I'll compare The United States government with God's kingdom (see Mat 6:10).

The center of Government for the USA is in the location of Washington.
The center of governemnt for God's kingdom is in heaven.

The President or head of that Government is Donald Trump
The "Predident or head of the Government of God is JESUS CHRIST

The government of the United States is limited to approximately 1000 individuals but they rule over 130 million subjects.
The Government of God is limited 144,000 individuals but they will rule over countless millions (maybe billions) of subjects (see Revelation 7:9)

The territory of the US government is the North America from the Canadian border to Mexico
The Territory of the Government of God will be the entire planet earth (see Isaiah 11:9)

CONCLUSION: Scripturally, people go to heaven for a reason or a purpose. They are chosen to rule with Jesus in his government or rulership. The rest of mankind will be "saved" from sin and death and will live eternally in paradise on earth.


Earlier explanations in this thread:

Comparable to structure of governments today
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 415#811415

What will life be like for the MILLIONS or BILLIONS of people that will live under (ie as subjects) of the kingdom?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 361#812361


Is there scriptural support for the idea of paradise being on EARTH?

Isaiah 11: 9
There shall be no harm or ruin on all my holy mountain; for THE EARTH shall be filled with knowledge of the LORD, as water covers the sea." -- New American Bible

Ecclesiastes 1: 4
"One generation goes and another comes; but THE EARTH is forever*."

Proverbs 2 v 21, 22 Douay-Rheims Bible
"For they that are upright shall dwell in THE EARTH, and the simple shall continue in it. But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it. -- King James Bible

Matthew 5: 5 American Standard Version
"Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit THE EARTH."

Matthew 6 v 10 Young's Literal Translationn "Thy reign come: Thy will come to pass, as in heaven also on THE EARTH."

Psalms 115:16 "The heavens belong to the LORD, but he has given THE EARTH to all humanity." New Living Translation (©2007)

PSALMS 72v8
May he also rule from sea to sea And from the River to the ends of THE EARTH. New American Standard Bible




How can millions be "saved" if only 144,000 individuals go to heaven?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 97#p846597

How are the 144,000 described elsewhere in scripture?
viewtopic.php?p=1021558#p1021558
(Onewithim)
viewtopic.php?p=875857#p875857

Why do most Jehovah's Witnesses not eat the bread or drink the wine at their memorial commemoration?
viewtopic.php?p=961920#p961920

To what does the final "sealing" refer mentioned in the book if Revelation?
viewtopic.php?p=1023143#p1023143

HOW are the 144,000 going to assist Jesus from heaven?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 5#p1005585

Can the Kingdom really be compared structurally to a real government?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 59#p883759

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

HEAVEN , GOD'S KINGDOM and ... THE 144, 000

Psalms 37:29 "The righteous themselves will possess THE EARTH, and they will reside forever upon it."

Psalms 37:11:
"But the meek ones themselves will possess THE EARTH, and they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace." [/quote]

[JehovahsWitness]

Is this true JW? that the 144,000 are pre-chosen and that those outside of the 144.000 can be Jehovah's Witnesses?

If you mean are those of that number predestined before birth to be so, no. Jehovah's Witnesses are not Calvenists and do not believe in predestination. Those that are offered this priviledge, recieve it after their baptism and can lose it if they do not prove faithful.

I mean what if some of the chosen chose to disobey or fall? Can they then be replaced by someone who repents? The number (144,000) is predetermined, an individual's place in that number is not. Jesus said "He that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved" (Mat 24:13) so any Christian that wants his reward, whether that be in heaven or on earth must remain faithful until the end. To illustrate what happened to Judas. He was originally one of "The Twelve" but because he proved unfaithful he was replaced by Matthias (see Act 1:26); God didn't say "Well, Judas you proved to be a unfaithful traitor but since you have already been selected, heres your crown!"


Is this true [...] that those outside of the 144.000 can be Jehovah's Witnesses?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding the question, of course those that are not part of that group of 144,000 can be Jehovah's Witnesses. There are over 8 million Jehovah's Witnesses, naturally by far the majority of JWs do not claim to be part of that group of anointed Christians, chosen to rule from heaven. I myself am one of JWs but I don't have the hope or desire to go to heaven. Evidently it is not a privelege that has been offered to me.

Doesn't this negate the freedom to choose? To choose what? Whether we will go to heaven or not? Eternal life is not "a choice" its an undeserved gift. We can of course exercise our right to choose to accept that gift or not. We don't get to decide where we will live eternally, that is for God to decide (see Mat 20: 23). Maybe I misunderstood the question feel free to clarify.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 166 by Hector Barbosa]

I don't understand this doctrine.

If you still have question after having read through my answers and links provided feel free to ask them.

SUMMARY

#God wants everybody to be happy

#He has arranged for a new kind of Government of 144,000 members.

#Some people will be chosen to go and be "ministers" in that Government and will die and go to heaven; whether a person is offered a position in government or a position as a subject is up to God

#Everyone not in the government, that wants to, will live as subjects the earth

#Whatever the offer the person must stay faithful until the end of their life or the end of this present world order.

#The earth will be very wonderful to live on; with no more war, hunger, suffering or emotional pain (see Revelation 21: 3, 4)

When people say the famous prayer "Thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on earth..." the above is what they are praying for, a new world Government located in heaven ruling over the whole earth.

[onewithhim]

I also have the earthly hope. We will be guided by those in the heavenly government, we who are down here on Earth, to get the planet cleaned up and back to the way it was supposed to be in the beginning.....all ecosystems working well, pollution reversed, abundant food for everyone, no aches and pains, dead people returned to life. It's an incredible and awesome hope, and I can hardly wait to be a part of it, should I stay faithful to the end.