Created immortal (indestructable)?

[JehovahsWitness]

To my knowledge "immortality" is only spoken of as being a reward for certain faithful. What is the scriptural basis for saying "humans" were originally created immortal*?

- do you believe Satan is immortal?
- do you believe the wicked are immortal?

- do you believe God can destroy them (as in put an end to their existence) but will never choose to do this?

- do you believe God cannot (does not have the ability to) destroy them (put an end to their existence)?

Why?


*by immortal I mean basically "indestructable"

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to post 32 by Claire Evans] are you indicating that Satan is not a created being?

That is what I'm saying.

If he is not a created being, what exactly is he?

Are you saying he is eternal or is not?

He's like God in that he just was. God wasn't created. I believe he is eternal. Revelation 20:10 supports that.


"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

If Revelation 20:10 is to be used to support the idea that Satan is eternal, it also supports the idea that the beast and the false prophet are eternal.

I think not.

Let us not be so quick as to take literally what is in Revelation, but bear in mind that much of it is couched in metaphors.

Let us not read more into verses than are there.

I believe souls are eternal.

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to post 32 by Claire Evans] are you indicating that Satan is not a created being?

That is what I'm saying.

If he is not a created being, what exactly is he?

Are you saying he is eternal or is not?

He's like God in that he just was. God wasn't created. I believe he is eternal. Revelation 20:10 supports that.


"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."

Some of us have been trying to tell you all that the phrase in Revelation that says that the Devil and the Beast, etc., will be tormented for ever and ever.....that is METAPHORICAL, meaning that they will be prevented from doing anything, forever and ever. They will not be tortured, they will just be OBLITERATED. What does the root word for TORMENTED mean? It is as a JAILER "torments" a prisoner by locking him up so that he can't do anything or bother anybody again. God will prevent Satan and this wicked system of things from ever harming anyone again by "locking them up" permanently, so they can't do anything---ANNIHILATING them---causing them to DISAPPEAR. That is what Revelation means.

Read further than Revelation 20:10. What does 20:14 say? DEATH AND HADES [HELL, KJV] are "thrown" into the lake of fire. How can you throw death????? How can you throw Hades???? It is METAPHORICAL, people. It means that they are destroyed.

You ignored this:

9 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

This suggests consciousness after death and being tormented. Obviously the rich man was not in a real fire else he would not be having a discussion. And he wasn't in oblivion.

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to post 20 by Claire Evans]
That is an astounding statement. That makes him a God in every sense of the word. Your concept however would remove some of the doctrinal difficulties surrounding Christianity. Now a true struggle would be possible eliminating the nagging concern that God is psychoticaly playing with his creation. Which of these Gods created our existence and reality?

If Satan was not a god, which is a generic word, then where does his supernatural powers come from?

If God created Satan, He clearly is playing around in a very nefarious way before look at the suffering that has ensued.

I believe both God and Satan are responsible for our reality. God created us but Satan corrupted us. I believe genetically. I will give you an example of how God and Satan work in an analogy:

Neutral atoms can be turned into positively charged ions by removing one or more electrons

God is the positively charged ion when Satan's power has been disabled in a situation (removing one or more electrons).

Atoms that gain extra electrons become negatively charged.

The more sin people are responsible for, the more powerful Satan becomes (negatively charged).

It's a constant battle between good and evil like in a atom where it is constantly positively and negatively charged.

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-diffe ... d-a-proton

Have you not taken into consideration that Satan was once an obedient angel and then followed his own selfish desires to be worshipped? He is most definitely "a god." 2 Corinthians 4:4 calls him such. "A god" is just a powerful individual, or anything that is worshipped or placed first in someone's life. Neither he nor any other being in the universe is equal to Jehovah.

Satan has supernatural powers because all angels have them. The good angels just wait for permission or instruction from Jehovah before they use them. God did not create Satan as Satan. He was once a loyal angel.

He was given the allowance to try and prove his challenge to Jehovah that every human will curse Him to His face if He allows suffering to happen to them. Jehovah has allowed Satan to wreak havoc on this world for 6,000 or so years. When Satan's time is up, the issue need never come up again, ever.

So what if the Bible says so? Where in the Bible does it say Satan was a obedient servant?

In order for Satan to have been tempted to do evil, evil must have existed prior to his creation. So God created sin? And God couldn't foresee what Satan would turn into? Sin can't exist in heaven.

Here is a question:

How do you go from sincere and trusting of God and just being jealous to being such a monstrous being that demands child rape and human sacrifice? Should God have known how Satan would turn out, why on earth would He have created him?

And there is no proof that the earth is only 6000 years old.

[Monta]

[Replying to Claire Evans]


He's like God in that he just was. God wasn't created. I believe he is eternal. Revelation 20:10 supports that.


"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."//

There's nothing in the Bible to insinuates the idea, that satan/devil
'just like God he just was'.
Rev. 20:10 only says where he will be in the future.

So what if it isn't in the Bible? People must just think. He has the same powers of God like omniscience and omnipresence. Therefore it is not hard to believe he has the same ability to always have existed.

I think and it leads me to believe that if it were as you say, then we have multiple gods of equal powers. Is this where satanic worship comes from?

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to Claire Evans]


He's like God in that he just was. God wasn't created. I believe he is eternal. Revelation 20:10 supports that.


"And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."//

There's nothing in the Bible to insinuates the idea, that satan/devil
'just like God he just was'.
Rev. 20:10 only says where he will be in the future.

So what if it isn't in the Bible? People must just think. He has the same powers of God like omniscience and omnipresence. Therefore it is not hard to believe he has the same ability to always have existed.

I think and it leads me to believe that if it were as you say, then we have multiple gods of equal powers. Is this where satanic worship comes from?

It is because of Jesus that Satan has been conquered despite his powers. His power is reliant on the sin of others so that he can feed off misery. Take that away, like Jesus has, and you will get a disabled being. It is not evident in this life but we know that it will manifest later as Revelation says.

[JehovahsWitness]

So what if it isn't in the Bible? People must just think. He has the same powers of God like omniscience and omnipresence. Therefore it is not hard to believe he has the same ability to always have existed.

So what would be the difference between that, and you just making stuff up? Why should anyone believe that Satan "has the powers of God" especially when it directly contradicts the bible that states that Jehovah has no equal. Doesn't that put people in the position of having to choose between what you say and what the bible teaches?

[rikuoamero]

So what if it isn't in the Bible? People must just think. He has the same powers of God like omniscience and omnipresence. Therefore it is not hard to believe he has the same ability to always have existed.

So what would be the difference between that, and you just making stuff up? Why should anyone believe that Satan "has the powers of God" especially when it directly contradicts the bible that states that Jehovah has no equal. Doesn't that put people in the position of having to choose between what you say and what the bible teaches?

I know we're in the Theology sub-forum, but why do you question if Claire is just making stuff up...but not the authors of the various books of the Bible?

[JehovahsWitness]

I know we're in the Theology sub-forum, but why do you question if Claire is just making stuff up...but not the authors of the various books of the Bible?

Because we are in the theology sub-forum. The authors of the bible are considered authoritive here.

JW

[Claire Evans]

So what if it isn't in the Bible? People must just think. He has the same powers of God like omniscience and omnipresence. Therefore it is not hard to believe he has the same ability to always have existed.

So what would be the difference between that, and you just making stuff up? Why should anyone believe that Satan "has the powers of God" especially when it directly contradicts the bible that states that Jehovah has no equal. Doesn't that put people in the position of having to choose between what you say and what the bible teaches?

It's up to the individual to decide what they want to believe. One must ask themselves if what I say makes sense. Do you believe that Satan is not omniscient and omnipresent? If so, where did he get his power from?

[JehovahsWitness]

It's up to the individual to decide what they want to believe. One must ask themselves if what I say makes sense. Do you believe that Satan is not omniscient and omnipresent?

Yes that is true. No I absolutely do NOT believe Satan is omniscient and omnipresent, firstly because that would make him equal to Almighty God YHWH Jehovah and the bible is very clear on the, Jehovah has no equal. Further the bible quite simply never attributes or indicates Satan is either omniscient or omnipresent, what (if anything) in scripture do you use to come to such a conclusion?



Satan certainly is spoken of as being powerful but he is never spoken of as being able to read minds, for example hear the silent prayers of our minds, and what would be the point of tempting Jesus if, being omnipotent he already knew he was going to fail? There is never any indication Satan is omnipresent, indeed if we believe scripture he most certainly is not as the bible speaks of him being thrown out of heaven, which would be impossible if he were omnipresent.

... so, where did he get his power from?

From God. God created the Angel that became Satan the Devil and when that angel rebelled, He (Jehovah ) "gave" in the sense of permitted him the freedom he (Satan) demanded.






JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to ....

OMNISCIENCE , OMNIPOTENCE and ... SATAN THE DEVIL