"True worship acceptable to God"

[Elijah John]

Jehovah's Witnesses claim to be the only group which practices "true worship acceptable to God" and that all other sects do not.

Seems an extraordinary claim.

Prove it!,... Give us extraordinary proof to support your extraordinary claim.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

[center]Did you ever have to make up your mind?[/center]

Jehovah’s Witnesses base their claim on the bible.

THEN IT'S A CLAIM.

Prove it's true, or drop it.

You are not the boss of me. I do not answer to your orders here or anywhere. Is that understood?

claim
verb
1.
state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.

I have fully explained myself above, including what I will and will not do in relation to questions from him in this particular thread.

Have a great day,

JW

[Elijah John]

Yes, on this particular thread, you insert the disclaimer we believe that we have the only "true worship acceptable to God", but I do not recall you using that qualifier on other threads.

Yes that is because it is our belief, are we the only group that is not allowed to state our beliefs, no matter how unreasonable they may seem to others? Even if we said we got that belief from the planet Zhogg, you are free to say "That's stupid" ... and then move on.

We hold our beliefs because we hold the entire bible as the infallible and perfect word of God and our own partitular interpretation of the bible at any given time to be true. I'm sure you agree that there is no point in presenting scriptures that are viewed by many as human opinion and along with Jehovah’s Witness interpretation which are viewed by some as mental gymnastics. So, it seems reasonable to agree to disagree on the infallibility of the text, the interpretation of those texts and the conclusions drawn.

I have stated my beliefs and the reasons for them. You can take this to apply to all statements I make on this subject. Feel free to react as you wish.


JW


Further reading : Is there one true religion?
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102008081

In other words, you cannot demonstrate that your group practices "true worship acceptable to God" and that others do not, as you claim.

Even if we, for the sake of argument take the Bible as our starting point.

In effect, neither you nor your group can support your divisive claim.

In principle, this OP is not leveled solely against JWs, the same argument can be applied to any Evangelical group that makes the same claim (though they may or may not use the same phrase) of having a monopoly on the Truth.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 11 by JehovahsWitness]


[center]Did you ever have to make up your mind?
Part Two: Misunderstanding the post, and then forgetting about the question[/center]

Jehovah’s Witnesses base their claim on the bible.

THEN IT'S A CLAIM.
Prove it's true, or drop it.

You are not the boss of me. I do not answer to your orders here or anywhere. Is that understood?

I never suggested that I was your boss.
You can completely ignore me if you so desire.

You can keep making the unsubstantiated claim, if you like.
Do whatever you like.

You don't have to PROVE anything that you don't want to.

[center]( and by "prove", I mean "supply a means by which others can establish if your claims are true" )[/center]

claim
verb
1.
state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.

I love definitions like that.
Thank you so much.

Yes, it's true that most people TYPICALLY make all sorts of claims without ever feeling the need to provide evidence or proof.

Have a great day

You too.

____________

Questions:

• 
  
  1. Do you agree with rule 5 which states : "5. Support your assertions/arguments with evidence. Do not persist in making a claim without supporting it. All unsupported claims can be challenged for supporting evidence. Opinions require no support, but they should not be considered as valid to any argument, nor will they be considered as legitimate support for any claim. " ?
  2. Were you making a claim in Post 2, or were you expressing a belief?
  
  

____________

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 9 by 2timothy316]

If opposition was the only criteria then I might agree with you. Are you aware of the other criteria that points to true worship?

____________

Question:

• 
  
  What does "true worship" mean?
  
  

____________

True worship is by means of truth and spirit. "God is a Spirit, and those worshipping him must worship with spirit and truth.� John 4:24

How does one worship in spirit and truth?

"Therefore, I appeal to you by the compassions of God, brothers, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, a sacred service with your power of reason. And stop being molded by this system of things, but be transformed by making your mind over, so that you may prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and perfect will of God." Romans 12:1, 2

How does one make their body holy and acceptable?

By our conduct. "but like the Holy One who called you, become holy yourselves in all your conduct." 1 Peter 1:15.

What is holy conduct?

That list is long. Here are a few.

"Pursue peace with all people" - Hebrews 12:14

"Continue to love your enemies and to pray for those who persecute you, so that you may prove yourselves sons of your Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise on both the wicked and the good and makes it rain on both the righteous and the unrighteous.� - Matt. 5:43-45

"Not to forsake the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom’—Heb. 10:25.

“Go therefore and make disciples.�— Mat 28:18, 19.

"And when you stand praying, forgive whatever you have against anyone, so that your Father who is in the heavens may also forgive you your trespasses.� Mark 11:25

“Do not avenge yourselves, beloved, but yield place to the wrath; for it is written: ‘Vengeance is mine; I will repay, says Jehovah.’� Romans 12:19

“You must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind.� (Matthew 22:37)

“This is what the love of God means, that we observe his commandments; and yet his commandments are not burdensome.�—1 John 5:3.

Many, many more things like these. It takes many months to study all of them and much longer to apply them to life.

[Pierac]

[Replying to post 9 by 2timothy316]

If opposition was the only criteria then I might agree with you. Are you aware of the other criteria that points to true worship?

____________

Question:

• 
  
  What does "true worship" mean?
  
  

____________

If we may let our Lord and King have the final word. Jesus plainly states, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be his worshipers. God is spirit; and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth" (John 4:23-24). Who does Jesus declare are the "true worshipers"? He insists, "the true worshipers shall worship the Father…" If we would be amongst the true worshipers we must be with Jesus worshiping this Father. Evidently, those who worship "God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost, three persons in one God," Are not said by Jesus to be the true worshippers. Those who worship the Father as the "only true God" are. The worshipper of the One God, the Father, as Jesus’ own affirmation that he is the true worshipper.

This is the biblical pattern throughout. The so-called Lord's prayer, the model prayer, teaches us to "pray in this way: our Father who art in heaven…"(Matt. 6:9). This pattern of prayer and worship prescribed by our Lord Jesus is followed and sanctioned by every example given in Scripture. See the following:

“Now may the God who gives perseverance and encouragement grant you to be of the same mind with one another according to Christ Jesus; that with one accord you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ" (Rom.15:5-6).

" For this reason I bow my knees before the Father," (Eph 3:14)

" giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, " (Eph 5:20)

" We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, "
( Col 1:3 )

"giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the
saints in light." (Col 1:12)

"And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father "through" him." (Col 3:17)

This list is by no means exhaustive. But it is sufficient to show that we are, with our Lord Jesus, to worship and pray to the Father. This is the usual pattern of prayer and worship in the New Testament. They prayed to the one God through the name or authority of Jesus Christ. They evidently were not aware that the Holy Spirit was God (a third person), for wherein all the pages of the Bible to the Saints pray to the Holy Spirit? And where in all the pages of Scripture do the worshipers of God sing to the Holy Spirit as is the general custom within Christendom today?

What about those passages where the Lord Jesus is worship? Or where the Lord Jesus is pray to? Surely this is proof positive that Jesus is God because only God is to be worshiped? (The words of Jesus are often used to substantiate this belief: "You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve him only" (Matt. 4:10), as though Jesus meant: "I am the Lord your God, worship only me." But this meaning is totally incongruous and has no parallel in the New Testament record.) Then, of course, there is God the Father's own directive to the Angels concerning Jesus the son of God: "and let all the Angels of God worship him" (Heb. 1:6). The fact that Jesus is worship by Thomas as he falls at his feet and honors him with the confession, "My Lord and my God!" Too many presents the final proof that Jesus is God (John 20:28). To all of this there is a very simple solution. Once again it comes back to a failure to understand biblical culture; a failure to read the Bible through Hebrew eyes. In the Old Testament in main Hebrew word for worship is shachah. It occurs about 170 times but the surprising thing is that only about half of this number relate to the worship of God as God. This fact is hidden in our English translations. The translators prefer to say "bow down to" or "revere" when shachah refers to homage paid to noble persons, whether Angels or men, but say "worship" when God is the object. This is a false distinction the original texts does not support. Here are just a view examples:


Lot "worshiped" the two strangers who looked like normal travelers as they entered
Sodom (Gen. 19:1).

Abraham "worshipped" the Gentile leaders of the land where he lived (Gen. 23:7).

Jacob "worshipped" his older brother Esau (Gen. 33:3).

Joseph's brothers "worshipped" him (Gen. 43:26).

Ruth "worshipped" Boaz (Ruth 2:10).

David "worshipped" Jonathan (1 Sam. 20:41).

David "worshipped" King Saul (1 Sam. 24:8).

Mephibosheth fell on his face and "worshipped" David (2 Sam. 9:6).

Abigail "worshipped" David the outlaw (1 Sam 25:23, 41).

The whole congregation "worshipped" the King (1 Chron. 9:20).

These are just a few instances of the many that could be cited to show the reluctance of the translators to consistently translate shachah as "worship" when worship of important persons was obviously a common feature of Hebrew culture. In Scripture worship is offered to God and to men. There is no special word and the Old Testament for "worship" reserved exclusively for God.

But there is a reluctance to translate this one-word consistently. If you looked up your English translations of the above verses you will find that you do not use the "w" word. They prefer to say "bowed down" or "revered" or "pay homage to" instead of "worshiped." This inconsistency of translation has created the false impression that only God can be worshiped.

So then, how do we explain this in light of the clear command that we are to worship God the Father alone as both the first commandment and Jesus himself command? Is this a contradiction after all? No way. The answer is that whenever men "worshiped" other men it was a relative worship. In most of the examples above it is clear that the ones worshiped were God's representatives. Once again we are back to the principle of Jewish agency. The Israelites had no difficulty in offering this proportional or relative worship to the ones who came in Gods Name, with God's message. It is obvious that the first commandment "You must not bow yourself down [shachah] to them nor serve them" is not a prohibition against a relative worship of those worthy of it. If this was the case then obviously all these Old Testament godly men and women sinned greatly. God even promises a coming day when He will make our enemies "to come and worship at your feet, and to know that I have loved you" (Rev. 3:9). Such worship of the Saints at God's degree is clearly a relative and proportional worship. It is perfectly legitimate to give honor to whom honor is due. This is why many Jews felt no impropriety in "worshiping" Jesus in the Gospels because they recognized him as a prophet of God, or the Messiah sent from God. But it is preposterous to think these good people believe Jesus was Jehovah God just because they worshiped him. When they saw and heard the mighty works of Jesus they glorified God through him (Matt. 9:8; 11:27; 28:18; Luke 7:16; 9:11; 10:22). This fits the whole will of the New Testament teaching that it is God the Father who is to receive glory through His son Jesus (Eph. 1:3, 6, 12; 1 Pet. 1:3; Heb. 13:15, etc.). Christ’s exaltation is the means to a higher end. For through him all worship is ultimately directed to God and Father.

To worship him (Jesus) as Lord Messiah is thus a divinely pleasing but subordinate or relative worship. It is instructive to read that in the coming Kingdom the Lord Jesus will orchestrate the worship of his brethren in the ultimate praise of his Father. He will "proclaim" the Name of God to his "brothers" and he will "in the mist of the congregation singing your praise" (Heb. 2:12). There, in that glorious Kingdom, Jesus Christ will continue to be a joyful worshiper of God his Father. Thus, the one God and Father he is alone worshiped absolutely. All other divinely appointed worship is homage to persons who are not God himself. Jesus is among those worthy of such worship for he is worshiped as the one Messiah, God's supreme son and agent.

Jesus knew the prophecy: "Worship the Lord with reverence, and… do homage to the Son" (Ps. 2: 11-12). Jesus knew God his Father had decreed "Let all the Angels of God worship him" (Psalms 97:7). Jesus knew that the angelic messengers of Jehovah had in the past received relative worship from God-pleasing men and women. Jesus knew that of the one true God could be addressed as though they were God. And Jesus knew he was the Son and ultimately agent of God, so how much greater his destiny! As the "only begotten Son" whom the father had "sealed" and commissioned he knew that whoever honored him honored the Father also. This was his Father's decree (Psalms 2:11-12; 97:7).


Psalms 2:11-12 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. 12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

Psalms 97:7 All worshipers of images are put to shame, who make their boast in worthless idols; worship him, all you gods!

Hope this helps...

Paul

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 8 by Divine Insight]

If opposition was the only criteria then I might agree with you. Are you aware of the other criteria that points to true worship?

So you are going to totally avoid the FACT that Jehovah's Witnesses are nothing but a very late-blooming group of rebels who have rebelled against orthodox Christianity?

Perhaps I need to place the important questions in boldly color print:

You said:

If opposition was the only criteria then I might agree with you. Are you aware of the other criteria that points to true worship?

Yes, I am aware that there are many other criteria in play.

Take a stab at defending the following:

How do Jehovah's Witnesses account for it having taken one thousand eight-hundred and seventy years before Christ's message was finally understood by a group of disgruntled Protestant rebels in Pittsburgh Pennsylvania?

Unless you can give a rational answer for this question there isn't much point in trying to hide behind "other criteria" that you haven't even addressed.

Until you can show why it even remotely makes any sense that Jehovah Witnesses could "get it right" whilst all other Christians "got it all wrong" for over 1870 years you simply don't have case.

There's nowhere to run and nowhere to hide until you can address how so many Christians could have had it all wrong for almost 2000 years.

Jehovah's Witnesses are basically like the Grinch who stole Christmas. In this case they are the Grinch who are trying to steal Christianity. But at 1% of Christendom they clearly aren't getting away with it.

Nobody's falling for this evidently. And for good reason.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 8 by Divine Insight]

If opposition was the only criteria then I might agree with you. Are you aware of the other criteria that points to true worship?

So you are going to totally avoid the FACT that Jehovah's Witnesses are nothing but a very late-blooming group of rebels who have rebelled against orthodox Christianity?

Ignore? Nope. THe Bible says that the 'wheat' would show itself at harvest time. So what you see as 'late-blooming' is actaully quite accurate when we consider that 'wheat' in a way 'blooms' and the 'weeds' do not. It's the return to the worship of the 1st century is what I'm concerned with. What JWs follow is not new. It's old but new to you perhaps?

Perhaps I need to place the important questions in boldly color print:

You said:

If opposition was the only criteria then I might agree with you. Are you aware of the other criteria that points to true worship?

Yes, I am aware that there are many other criteria in play.

Take a stab at defending the following:

How do Jehovah's Witnesses account for it having taken one thousand eight-hundred and seventy years before Christ's message was finally understood by a group of disgruntled Protestant rebels in Pittsburgh Pennsylvania?

Rebels from who's point of view? Babylon the Great? Then that's good! If you had been reading my posts then you'd know that there was to be an 'appointed time of the nations'. That was to last for almost 2000 years. So the suppression was planned to be allowed.

Unless you can give a rational answer for this question there isn't much point in trying to hide behind "other criteria" that you haven't even addressed

Until you can show why it even remotely makes any sense that Jehovah Witnesses could "get it right" whilst all other Christians "got it all wrong" for over 1870 years you simply don't have case.

There's nowhere to run and nowhere to hide until you can address how so many Christians could have had it all wrong for almost 2000 years.

Jehovah's Witnesses are basically like the Grinch who stole Christmas. In this case they are the Grinch who are trying to steal Christianity. But at 1% of Christendom they clearly aren't getting away with it.

Nobody's falling for this evidently. And for good reason.

You seem to be just too hostile to have any sort of 'rational' conversation. You sound like you have judged everything out for yourself already.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 14 by 2timothy316]



[center]

Ouch, true worship is going to STING[/center]

"Therefore, I appeal to you by the compassions of God, brothers, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, a sacred service with your power of reason. And stop being molded by this system of things, but be transformed by making your mind over, so that you may prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and perfect will of God." Romans 12:1, 2

You have to present your BODY as a living SACRIFICE?

If you are worshiping in the spirit and the truth, how come you aren't dead yet?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 14 by 2timothy316]



[center]

Ouch, true worship is going to STING[/center]

"Therefore, I appeal to you by the compassions of God, brothers, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, a sacred service with your power of reason. And stop being molded by this system of things, but be transformed by making your mind over, so that you may prove to yourselves the good and acceptable and perfect will of God." Romans 12:1, 2

You have to present your BODY as a living SACRIFICE?

If you are worshiping in the spirit and the truth, how come you aren't dead yet?

Simple, "a living sacrifice" is, by definition, living, and therefore not "dead yet".

[onewithhim]

Yes, on this particular thread, you insert the disclaimer we believe that we have the only "true worship acceptable to God", but I do not recall you using that qualifier on other threads.

Yes that is because it is our belief, are we the only group that is not allowed to state our beliefs, no matter how unreasonable they may seem to others? Even if we said we got that belief from the planet Zhogg, you are free to say "That's stupid" ... and then move on.

We hold our beliefs because we hold the entire bible as the infallible and perfect word of God and our own partitular interpretation of the bible at any given time to be true. I'm sure you agree that there is no point in presenting scriptures that are viewed by many as human opinion and along with Jehovah’s Witness interpretation which are viewed by some as mental gymnastics. So, it seems reasonable to agree to disagree on the infallibility of the text, the interpretation of those texts and the conclusions drawn.

I have stated my beliefs and the reasons for them. You can take this to apply to all statements I make on this subject. Feel free to react as you wish.


JW


Further reading : Is there one true religion?
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102008081

In other words, you cannot demonstrate that your group practices "true worship acceptable to God" and that others do not, as you claim.

Even if we, for the sake of argument take the Bible as our starting point.

In effect, neither you nor your group can support your divisive claim.

Oh yes we can, and I have supplied support for this claim many times in the past. But I guess it goes right over everybody's heads. This will be lengthy, but you asked for it again.

(1) "By their fruits you will recognize" the true from the false (Matt.7:15-23). Jesus said that the true worshipers would actually be DOING the will of the Father. This list will show some of the identifying marks of the true worshipers.

(2) "God is love." (I John 4:8) Jesus showed that the most outstanding mark of those who follow his example is that they would have love among themselves. He said: "By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves." (John 13:35) It must be a love that deeply affects every aspect of one's daily life. It should influence how one treats the other members of his family; it should affect one's attitude toward people of other races and nations. True worshipers seek what is truly in the best interests of others (IJohn 3:18)

(3) To further the point about love: Do the religious organizations with which you have been acquainted instill in their members a love that is so strong that it still is in action even in difficult times? What do they do, for example, when there is war between nations? By far the majority of them have been willing for their members to go out on the battlefield and slaughter their fellow believers that happen to be of another nationality, at the command of worldly men. Is such a course according to God's Word? Does it reflect the spirit of God?

IJohn 3:10-12: "By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother [How can a person love his fellow believer of another nation and yet kill him?]. For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another; not as Cain, who was of the evil one and slew his brother. (NASB)

Matthew 5:44: "But I [Jesus] say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you." (NASB) Jesus takes it even further than loving your fellow believer.....he says even to love our enemies! Where does going to war fit in with that?


(4) Not everyone has followed this course, have they? Who are the ones that can say with the apostle Paul, "For though we walk in the flesh, we do not wage warfare in the flesh, for the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly." (2 Corinthians 10:3,4) Who cannot be found guilty for living a lie by saying, "I love God," while hating his brother of another nation (IJohn 4:20,21) or even his enemy of another nation?

(5) How do Jesus' true followers show love in other ways? UNITY is a big one. Unity with fellow Christians in all lands. (Galatians 6:10) Other scripture also leaves no room for doubt about this: "Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you." (I Corinthians 1:10, NASB) People can't believe that it is possible. Why? Undoubtedly because their own religious organization is not unified. Whose religion shows unity throughout the earth?

(6) Another mark of true religion is respect for God's Word. Jesus set this pattern by showing the highest respect for the Scriptures. He quoted them as the final authority on matters. He continually referred his listeners to the Scriptures (Matt.19:4-6; Luke 24:44,45). He showed his deep respect for the Bible by living in accord with its teachings every day. He condemned those who failed to teach in harmony with it and who tried to weaken its authority with their own teachings. (Mark 7:9-13) What organization does not incorporate teachings of men (that were solidified way after Jesus was on earth, e.g., the teaching of the Trinity that was made part of Christendom's doctrines after the 4th century)?


(continued)