Jehovah’s Witnesses only ones that will be saved?????

[Donray]

Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that only 144,000 people will go to heaven. God chooses these 144,000 individuals, the process began with the first century Christians and was completed in the year 1935. Of course from 1879 (the year the Watchtower started) till 1935 only faithful Jehovah’s Witnesses were chosen for this special role. All faithful Jehovah’s Witnesses not chosen to be among the 144,000 elite that go to heaven (those joining the Watchtower after 1935) will spend eternity on earth. All other people on the earth will be destroyed at war of Armageddon here on earth. This would also include any Jehovah's Witnesses who has been disfellowshipped or is otherwise unfaithful to the Watchtower and has not worked his or her way back into the good graces of the Watchtower by the time of Armageddon.

If one believes the JWs all other Christians and everyone that is not a JW will not go to heaven or live on the Earth after Armageddon.

Question for debate is JW the only true Christin religion or is it some type of cult that calls itself Christian?

[Donray]

I studied the idea that it happened at all. I came to the conclusion that it did, seeing that angels in ancient times came to earth and had obviously materialized into physical persons.

I have only presented what conclusions I have come to by way of lengthy study and meditation.

Answer me this since you studied the subject. Why could the angel just create the illusion of a physical form in the minds of those around? Lots of people in the mental hospitals that see things that no one else sees.

Surly your study would have given you the answer. You most have thought of it as a possibility and dismissed it for a reason.

So, lets hear your response.

Also, since you did a study on the subject could you provide a list of the books and articles that you used that have support for both for and against?

Didn't I say that I don't know how angels materialize bodies? Nobody does. We can just tell from the Scriptures that they did.

I provided Scriptural passages to show that angels DID materialize. (Genesis 18:1-5) Angels representing Jehovah appeared to Abraham and had their feet washed and ate a meal. Also Genesis 19:1-3. It is obviously ANGELS that visited Abraham and Lot, and yet they appeared as physical humans. It is accepted universally, among reasonable men, that angels are from the SPIRIT REALM, and in that realm they have spirit bodies, just as God does (John 4:24; I Corinth. 15:40,50). When they appeared to Abraham and Lot, they had physical bodies, which is obvious because they ate physical food.

What further evidence do we need to show that angels materialized physical bodies?

Why did you say you studies the subject????? All you did was believe what your religious leaders told you.

I asked for all your reference and you provided none. You did not study the subject so why did you say you did?

Do you know study would be reading both sides of the subject and then knowing why you took one side or the other.

Again, what did you study besides your religious leaders telling what to parrot?

Could you at least provide the arguments that you studied that are against your conclusion?

[OnceConvinced]

Why did you say you studies the subject????? All you did was believe what your religious leaders told you.

I asked for all your reference and you provided none. You did not study the subject so why did you say you did?

Do you know study would be reading both sides of the subject and then knowing why you took one side or the other.

Again, what did you study besides your religious leaders telling what to parrot?

Could you at least provide the arguments that you studied that are against your conclusion?

Moderator Comment

Please avoid making accusations against other members. Also bear in mind that this is the "Theology, Doctrine and Dogma" subforum which takes the bible as authoritative, so members are not obliged to consider or study the other side, to debate within it.


Please review the Rules.


______________

Moderator comments do not count as a strike against any posters. They only serve as an acknowledgment that a post report has been received, but has not been judged to warrant a moderator warning against a particular poster. Any challenges or replies to moderator postings should be made via Private Message to avoid derailing topics.

[Donray]

[Replying to post 242 by OnceConvinced]

Just using the bible is not studying a subject. She should have said that JW teaches us that angles and Jesus go from spiritual to physical.

Saying one studies a subject indicates that you know something about the subject like how this is plausible.

The bible does not say if this happened or that the people thought thy saw a physical thing.

Since she studied the subject she should be able to proved some reason to believe what she does. Does the bible address the issue? NO.

Also since this is a JW belief I am sure that she need to study the subject since she was told she needed to believe.

Although in this topic we consider the bible as on source of information, studying a subject requires that more source be used.

[tam]

May you have peace!

[Replying to post 240 by onewithhim]

The text says BOTH....that the 144,000 are from the "12 tribes" AND from every nation.

No it does not.


The text says that 144 000 are taken equally from 12 tribes.

The text says that those who reign with Christ (those that He purchased with His blood) are from EVERY tribe, nation, tongue and people.


The text NEVER says that the 144 000 are from both the twelve tribes AND every tribe/nation/tongue/people.


I can and have quoted the scriptures to show this to you. Because that actually IS what the text says.


And of course, as I have continued to point out... the wts "interpretation" of the text continues to mislead and teach people (who are listening to the WTS instead of to Christ) into disobeying Christ.


Yet it is Christ who is the Truth and the Light and the Way and the Life.


As Peter said,

"Lord, to whom would we go away to? YOU have the words of eternal life!"



Peter of course spoke these words after most of the disciples left Christ - interestingly enough, because of this very matter: partaking of the body and blood of Christ.


This would have been an opportune time for Him to clarify, if indeed He meant that only some should eat and drink of Him; and some should not. But instead He said ANYONE may eat, and that unless one ate and drank of Him, one had no life in them. He also told His apostles that they were to make disciples and teach them to also obey ALL that He had commanded them (the apostles).


So the WTS is in conflict with Him when they say that this command was only for some disciples and not others. Christ said we are to eat and drink of Him. He never said some disciples should eat and drink and some disciples should not.



That is PURELY a WTS teaching; a doctrine of men.


Christ also said:


Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them."


All who love me will do what I say. My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with each of them.





May anyone who seeks and anyone who thirsts "Come and take the free gift of the water of Life!"


(which water is holy spirit, poured out BY the LIFE: Christ Jaheshua; given to Him without end by His Father).



Peace again to you, and to your loved ones,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[2timothy316]

May you have peace!

[Replying to post 240 by onewithhim]

The text says BOTH....that the 144,000 are from the "12 tribes" AND from every nation.

No it does not.

Sorry, yes it does. the 144,000 are to rule as kings over the earth singing a new song only they can master.

"Jesus said to them: “Truly I say to you, in the re-creation, when the Son of man sits down on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will sit on 12 thrones, judging the 12 tribes of Israel." Mat 19:28

“However, you are the ones who have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, so that you may eat and drink at my table in my Kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the 12 tribes of Israel."

"And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth." Rev 14:3

"And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.� Rev 5:9, 10

The 144,000 are rulers and are the only one that can master the new song and they are from every nation.

[tam]

Peace to you timothy!

May you have peace!

[Replying to post 240 by onewithhim]

The text says BOTH....that the 144,000 are from the "12 tribes" AND from every nation.

No it does not.

Sorry, yes it does.

No, it does not. I showed the exact text.


You are inferring things with the texts you choose to support your position, but that is all you are doing. Inferring/interpreting... and your interpretation continues to support a doctrine (man-made) that teaches people to disobey Christ. So from your quotes:

the 144,000 are to rule as kings over the earth

Upon the earth. (you can use the word 'over' inasmuch as it is synonymous with upon) But not them alone, since the 144 000 are taken from 12 tribes, and those who reign as kings and priests with Christ are taken from every tribe (including the 12 that the 144 000 are from), nation, people and tongue.

singing a new song only they can master.

Yes, the text states that 144 000 sing a new song that only they can master.

And why not?

They are the only ones (from all the rest of Israel, and even from the rest who are in the world) who are sealed before the 4 winds are released, before the great tribulation begins. There is something unique about them; so it makes sense that their song would also be unique to them.


That does not mean that this song is the only new song that is sung.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[2timothy316]

That does not mean that this song is the only new song that is sung.

Ok simple fix. What other group sings a new song in Revelation?

"And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.� Rev 5:9, 10

"And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth. These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb." Rev 14:3, 4

"Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years." Rev 20:6

There is no other group noted in Revelation singing a new song. The new song is always sung by the 144,000. The kingdom of priests ruling for 1000 years is always referring to the 144,000. So show us the scripture in Revelation where another group is singing a new song or ruling the Earth and we can look further into your claim.

[tam]

That does not mean that this song is the only new song that is sung.

Ok simple fix. What other group sings a new song in Revelation?

"And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, for you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought people for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.� Rev 5:9, 10

"And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth. These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins. These are the ones who keep following the Lamb no matter where he goes. These were bought from among mankind as firstfruits to God and to the Lamb." Rev 14:3, 4

"Happy and holy is anyone having part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no authority but they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and they will rule as kings with him for the 1,000 years." Rev 20:6

There is no other group noted in Revelation singing a new song. The new song is always sung by the 144,000. The kingdom of priests ruling for 1000 years is always referring to the 144,000. So show us the scripture in Revelation where another group is singing a new song or ruling the Earth and we can look further into your claim.

What makes you think these two songs are the same song?


One is sung by the 144 000 (Rev 14) - who are taken from TWELVE tribes of Israel. That song is not written out. The text states that only the 144 000 can learn this song.

The other song is sung by people from EVERY tribe (including the 144 000), nation, tongue and people, whom Christ purchased with His blood, and who reign with Him in His Kingdom. (Rev 5:9)


(Indeed, that song seems even to be written OUT, after the colon.)



Peace to you!
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[2timothy316]

What makes you think these two songs are the same song?

What makes you think there are two? There is only one new song that can be mastered. That means to me that the 'new song' is singular otherwise the Bible would say, 'there is another new song'. The Bible is clear there are two groups. One that is numbered and one that is not. One that can master the new song and one that can't. Ones that will rule and one that will not. There is no mention of another new song in the Bible that everyone can master. Why else make a clear distinction that there was a song only the 144.00 could master? There is no mention of the Great Crowd learning a new song at all. Not even in any of the scriptures context.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 247 by 2timothy316]

The kingdom of priests ruling for 1000 years is always referring to the 144,000.

Maybe, maybe not.

You think so, but I don't think it can be proven either way.