Leave us alone

[Youkilledkenny]

Big proponent here of 'live and let live'. So long as your actions don't directly impact me & my family in a negative way, I don't much care how you live your life.
If you want to talk to burning bushes, have at it.
If you want to shop only on Sunday, go for it.
Mary and Beth that lives on the other side of the country wants to get married? Better you than me so enjoy.
Want to smoke 172 packs of cigs a day? Gross but ok - just don't blow the smoke on me.
If you wasn't to stand on your roof on one leg in a purple dress waiting for the cashmul equinox knock yourself out.
Why is it that Christians find the need to make society that we all share (muslim, jew, agnostic, atheists, satanists, scientologists, worshippers of the blood diamond - whatever) try to fit their paradigm?
Is it arrogance in thinking your way is the only right way?
Are you trying to make the world a 'better place'?
Do you just like forcing your beliefs on others thinking it will but you into God's good graces and eventually heaven?
Or are you hiding behind a belief in order to be a jerk?

Why can't you, the Christian, live and answer for your life while allowing everyone else to do the same?
What makes your life and belief so special that it supersedes everyone else's?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 19 by bluethread]

What determines what is morally good?

It's not WHAT.. it's who.
WHO determines that?

In a democracy, the government serves the PEOPLE.
The PEOPLE determine that.

Some people don't vote.. so they don't have a say.

[Bust Nak]

What determines what is morally good?

What? You mean who. I determine what is morally good.

As far as I am concerned, the federal government should not require cake makers to make any kind of cake, and many non-Christian libertarians agree with me. So, if we are using the "morally good" standard, Christians are not welcome to force cake makers to make "gay wedding cakes" (whatever they are).

Just so we are clear we are talking about commercial cake maker. For whom and what cake someone make or does not make in private is not the government's business. I do have a question though, you singled out federal government here, that seemed to implied you are okay with state government requirements?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 22 by Bust Nak]

What determines what is morally good?

What? You mean who. I determine what is morally good.

We all do.
Each and every single one of us.

[Youkilledkenny]

[Replying to post 13 by bluethread]

I don't think that was what was said.
Having clarified that, there seems a difference to me in forcing a belief on others based off of "wishes" and "hopes", who one knows doesn't share same (and many times similar) beliefs when, many times, they themselves are as guilty of said things trying to be forced on to others.
But I suppose, if Christians follow God's example of "do as I say not as I do" it would make sense to them.

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 19 by bluethread]

What determines what is morally good?

It's not WHAT.. it's who.
WHO determines that?

In a democracy, the government serves the PEOPLE.
The PEOPLE determine that.

Some people don't vote.. so they don't have a say.

So, we behead the aristocracy, right? Vive LaFrance

[bluethread]

What determines what is morally good?

What? You mean who. I determine what is morally good.

As far as I am concerned, the federal government should not require cake makers to make any kind of cake, and many non-Christian libertarians agree with me. So, if we are using the "morally good" standard, Christians are not welcome to force cake makers to make "gay wedding cakes" (whatever they are).

Just so we are clear we are talking about commercial cake maker. For whom and what cake someone make or does not make in private is not the government's business. I do have a question though, you singled out federal government here, that seemed to implied you are okay with state government requirements?

So, if I make a cake for myself, I can make it any way I want. However, if I sell that cake, I am obligated BY LAW to make another cake according to your specifications? Is a Kosher bakery legally obligated to make "authentic" croissants, i.e. using lard? I said federal government rather than all government, because the federal government is the extreme. For me, the more local the better.

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 13 by bluethread]

I don't think that was what was said.
Having clarified that, there seems a difference to me in forcing a belief on others based off of "wishes" and "hopes", who one knows doesn't share same (and many times similar) beliefs when, many times, they themselves are as guilty of said things trying to be forced on to others.
But I suppose, if Christians follow God's example of "do as I say not as I do" it would make sense to them.

Yes, I would prefer people follow my example. However, why is that required of Christians, but not of secular people Why does a secular government require me to support things I do not believe in?

[Bust Nak]

I determine what is morally good.

We all do.
Each and every single one of us.

Sure, but I don't care much what you think is morally good. All I care about is your compliance with what I think is morally good.

So, if I make a cake for myself, I can make it any way I want. However, if I sell that cake, I am obligated BY LAW to make another cake according to your specifications?

Within reason yes, you should be obligated BY LAW to make another cake according to my reasonable specifications.

Is a Kosher bakery legally obligated to make "authentic" croissants, i.e. using lard?

No, that's rather unreasonable. This is what I had in mind: A Kosher bakery which make croissants, should be legally obligated to sell said croissants to non Kosher customers, including someone who intents to fill it with bacon, to serve at an "alt right" convention.

I said federal government rather than all government, because the federal government is the extreme. For me, the more local the better.

Okay, does that mean it's more acceptable to you for local government to force bakers to sell gay wedding cakes?

However, why is that required of Christians, but not of secular people?

Loaded question cannot be answered. What made you think it is not required of secular people?

Why does a secular government require me to support things I do not believe in?

Governments do that because they have a mandate and a duty to require people to do certain things, even things certain people do not believe in; especially things people do not believe in, since people are normally willing to do the things they believe in without prodding from the government.

Note the difference between material support such as supplying goods, and approval. You don't have to like gay weddings to provide a gay wedding cake, only the latter is required.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 25 by bluethread]

[center]

Democracy vs "something else"[/center]

What determines what is morally good?

It's not WHAT.. it's who.
WHO determines that?

In a democracy, the government serves the PEOPLE.
The PEOPLE determine that.

Some people don't vote.. so they don't have a say.

So, we behead the aristocracy, right? Vive LaFrance[

I think that democracy has come a long way from that.
Even in France. We aren't living in the past.

What you are talking about was CHAOS... not democracy.
That was mob rule... mobs aren't democratic.

The US version of that was the McCarthy era of persecuting communists.
Now the US has Trump targeting people from other countries he doesn't like and attacking the media. That's not very democratic either.

That's not to say that democracy is implemented perfectly everywhere. I don't even know what a "perfect" democracy would BE. We just do our best as we go along.


When we can spot a mistake, then we might be able to correct it.
That's like everything else.

Civics classes explains these kinds of things.

____________

Question:

• 
  
  Do you think that democracy is a bad idea?
  
  

____________

[Clownboat]

As one of Jehovah's Witnesses we don'the try to change the world through politics, we don't vote. We preach to people because that is part of our worship.

It is part of my worship to the actual, one, true, real god that I go door to door at 2am to sing praise and worship songs to it.

It's part of my worship... so it's OK right?

What if it's part of my worship to be racist to a certain group of people because my religion tells me that one of their ancestors murdered their brother and his offspring are now cursed with different skin (for example)?

Seems to be just another example of people using religion to justify poor behavior.
Undesirable behavior is undesirable whether we try to justify it with religious reasons or not.

"It's part of my worship" does not change this nor justify it.