Does disbelief in the atoning cross

[Elijah John]

Is it fair to suggest that if one does not believe Jesus died to "pay for" our sins then one must have contempt for Jesus?

Or to suggest that "we too would have him crucified"?

Is believing that Jesus died to "pay for" our sins, the only way to find meaning in an otherwise horrific event like his crucifixion?

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 12 by Elijah John]
Is believing that Jesus died to "pay for" our sins, the only way to find meaning in an otherwise horrific event like his crucifixion?

I am contrasting two horrors: The pointless evolution from microbes to man predicated on the vast and unending dance of death.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 12 by Elijah John]
Is believing that Jesus died to "pay for" our sins, the only way to find meaning in an otherwise horrific event like his crucifixion?

I am contrasting two horrors: The pointless evolution from microbes to man predicated on the vast and unending dance of death.

Not sure about the relevence of your statement here to the topic. "Pointless evolution" is a position I do not hold. Meaningful evolution, yes, because I believe evolution is a tool in the Creator's toolbox, but not "pointless" random evolution.

But this discussion is not about evolution, and your allusion to the "dance of death" escapes me, so once again..your point?

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to Elijah John]

What a limit God you serve. You believe in an all powerful Satan and a God who is more evil than good. Yes there is forgiveness for those blasphemy the Holy Spirit for this passage was address the Jews not the loss. Carnal man cannot believe until he is called. it is his nature to not believe. God has many ages to all all people.

Your post here demonstrates that you have no idea what I believe.

Actually it is those who believe that the Almighty and Living God is bound by Bibles and Quar'ans and Church dogma who believe in a "limited God" or who believe in limiting God. By contrast, I believe that God transcends all those things.

And regarding your charge that I believe God is "more evil than good" you obviously have not read my exchanges on these very boards against those who claim that God is evil. I have attempted to defend the Benevolence of God in each of those exchanges, as well as with every post by means of my signature line "the real YHVH is NOT a monster" as some here claim Him to be.

And regarding Satan, I'm not even sure he exists at all. Humankind with our free will is all but too capable of sinning on our own, without the necessity of an evil tempter, who it is said also abused his own free will to become the fallen angel.

So please, check your facts before you make ridiculous charges against another poster and misrepresent their positions. Better yet, avoid personal remarks altogether.

And regarding Satan, I'm not even sure he exists at all. Humankind with our free will is all but too capable of sinning on our own, without the necessity of an evil tempter, who it is said also abused his own free will to become the fallen angel.

What did Jesus mean He said the Pharisees were like their father, the devil? What about the demons that Jesus had to exorcise? Did they not exist to you? What is the victory over evil if Jesus if there was not an ultimate enemy in the most evil form ever like Satan? Human beings are weak but there is more to someone who deals in sex trafficking, for example, or eating children. This is not normal. It cannot be done naturally else God would have put that evil nature in humans. The only explanation for such horrendous sin is for people to be possessed by Satan.

[Elijah John]

What did Jesus mean He said the Pharisees were like their father, the devil? What about the demons that Jesus had to exorcise? Did they not exist to you? What is the victory over evil if Jesus if there was not an ultimate enemy in the most evil form ever like Satan? Human beings are weak but there is more to someone who deals in sex trafficking, for example, or eating children. This is not normal. It cannot be done naturally else God would have put that evil nature in humans. The only explanation for such horrendous sin is for people to be possessed by Satan.

How do you get from anything I have written that I don't believe that evil exists? The devil is evil personified. Doesn't mean he is an actual being.

If we humans turn away from God, and turn away from the Good, then that is evil...by default.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]



[center]An example of Christian charity.[/center]

It could be contempt, abject blasphemy but it could also simply be ignorance. Satan delights in undermining God's purposes and methods, so naturally Satan would be happy for people to misunderstand or reject God's greatest gift to mankind.

You just called all outsiders to your faith who don't WORSHIP what you do contemptuous, blasphemous, ignorant, and Satan's delight.

Thanks?
I love you too, bro.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Yes in answer to your third point The Crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus is the whole meaning of Christianity in a nutshell.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 25 by dio9]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Yes in answer to your third point The Crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus is the whole meaning of Christianity in a nutshell.

So, it's really crucial that Christians really believe that it happened the way it's described in the Bible... or else that whole religion is rather meaningless.

____________

Question:

• 
  
  Do you think that a strong desire for something to be true adds or removes from the ability to evaluate any claim objectively?
  
  

____________

[Benoni]

Disbelieve is man's nature when it comes to believing in God. Carnal man is dead to the realm of God and cannot see, hear, smell, or touch the realm of god for when Adam died we all died to that realm. When Adam ate of the fruit he died. It took 930 years to die physically but spiritually he was dead. Oh sure I believe the glory of God was in his memories that is why it took so long for natural death to finally happen. but we are all dead in trespasses and sins. That is why the second death or death killed by death must happen so we will live in the life of Christ without death. The second death will kill all death.

How can carnal man chose Christ? It’s a spiritual experience to choose Christ. Carnal man is dead in trespasses and sin. it takes the power of God's Spirit to quicken or make man alive to hear spiritual things.

1 Corinthians 2:
14But the natural, nonspiritual man does not accept or welcome or admit into his heart the gifts and teachings and revelations of the Spirit of God, for they are folly (meaningless nonsense) to him; and he is incapable of knowing them [of progressively recognizing, understanding, and becoming better acquainted with them] because they are spiritually discerned and estimated and appreciated.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 21 by Elijah John]


[center]
Pointless evolution vs meaningful evolution[/center]

Meaningful evolution, yes, because I believe evolution is a tool in the Creator's toolbox, but not "pointless" random evolution.

____________

Question:

• 
  
  How can we tell if evolution is random, pointless or not?
  Does it have a label on it?
  
  

____________

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 25 by dio9]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Yes in answer to your third point The Crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus is the whole meaning of Christianity in a nutshell.

So, it's really crucial that Christians really believe that it happened the way it's described in the Bible... or else that whole religion is rather meaningless.

____________

Question:

• 
  
  Do you think that a strong desire for something to be true adds or removes from the ability to evaluate any claim objectively?
  
  

____________

If Christ be not risen, then our faith is in vain.
I see it quite frequently on the bus here in little ol' Ireland. Of course, the logic of that statement holds true for anything. If Muhammed be not God's Last Prophet, then our faith is in vain. I don't think I'll find too many Christians willing to agree that Muhammed was a prophet, not when he says that the resurrection was a deception.