Wearing sins obviously

[Zzyzx]

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Wearing sins obviously

The Seven Deadly Sins, according to church tradition (and Pope Gregory I) are pride, greed, lust, wrath, gluttony, envy, and sloth.

Notice that one or two show physically – gluttony and possibly sloth. Greed may be evident outwardly as well. Let's just consider the most obvious and undeniable – gluttony – which is identified as; excessive ongoing consumption of food or drink.

Excessive consumption is reflected in being overweight or obese. In spite of excuses, that condition results from consuming more food and drink than the body requires – gluttony.

Since two-thirds of the US population is overweight or obese AND most citizens self-identify as Christian it is safe to conclude that many Christians continuously commit one of the Seven Deadly Sins (though they may attempt to conceal their sin with clever use of clothing -- and living in denial or excuse-making).

How do they justify living in sin blatantly and without repentance?

How can they justify condemning the sins of others while being so obviously in sin themselves?

[ttruscott]

How do they justify living in sin blatantly and without repentance?

How can they justify condemning the sins of others while being so obviously in sin themselves?

I doubt many justify it at all. They just live with it, not repentant and their hopes in Christ are false. Others, well...the struggle is sometimes hidden. They understand that it brings them a rougher life, Heb 12:5-11 but they proceed slowly as the enslaving addiction to sin is abiding and constraining which is one of the reasons it takes so long for GOD to wean HIS sinful elect from sin.

[tam]

Peace to you Z!

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Wearing sins obviously

The Seven Deadly Sins, according to church tradition (and Pope Gregory I) are pride, greed, lust, wrath, gluttony, envy, and sloth.

Christ had a few words to say against following the traditions of men over the Word of God.


Sin is sin, and the wages of sin is death. Christ mentioned only one unforgivable sin and none of the so called 'seven deadly sins' are that sin (blasphemy of the Holy Spirit).


Indeed, Christ did not even mention all of the sins from the so called 'seven deadly sins'.

Notice that one or two show physically – gluttony and possibly sloth.

And how would a person know the difference between someone who is overweight (as man deems it) due to gluttony versus being overweight due to genetics? Or perhaps even due to a medical condition?


Christ did say that we are not to judge by outward appearance. Indeed, we are not to judge at all (unless one wishes to BE judged, because by the measure that we use to judge others, that will be used to judge US).

Greed may be evident outwardly as well. Let's just consider the most obvious and undeniable – gluttony – which is identified as; excessive ongoing consumption of food or drink.

Okay, but same question as above.

Excessive consumption is reflected in being overweight or obese. In spite of excuses, that condition results from consuming more food and drink than the body requires – gluttony.

"In spite of excuses"... sounds judgmental.

Do you know any overweight or obese people? Do you know any that struggle their entire lives with their weight? Do you know how they feel (and are made to feel) by a world that values the outward appearance, and that judges them as being lazy or gluttonous, merely by appearance?


How do you account for every member of a family (generations) that have the same build? Is everyone in the family a glutton?

What about those who are poor and overweight, because they eat food that is bad, because that food is cheaper and/or easier, considering that they may have less time and energy on their hands?


One might call these excuses, but they are still reasons.


Indeed a skinny person could be far more gluttonous than an overweight person.


Perhaps we should just not judge people over their appearance, or even over their weaknesses. Guaranteed, everyone has them (weaknesses/sins/etc), including you and me, etc.

Since two-thirds of the US population is overweight or obese AND most citizens self-identify as Christian it is safe to conclude that many Christians continuously commit one of the Seven Deadly Sins (though they may attempt to conceal their sin with clever use of clothing -- and living in denial or excuse-making).

I don't have more to say about this than what has already been said. Though perhaps one might consider that those who DO attempt to conceal being overweight with "clever use of clothing"... do so because people in this world make them ashamed of their bodies. Not because they are ashamed of their 'sin'.

How can they justify condemning the sins of others while being so obviously in sin themselves?

I don't know how anyone can justify doing that.

Everyone sins... so any condemning of anyone else for sin is condemning oneself.

(by the measure you use, it will be used against you).



Regardless of what one looks like or how many fat cells one has. God sees what is inside a person... and what is inside does tend to manifest itself: via words and deeds.



**


Now if your point (taking the focus off overweight people) is merely,

How do people justify living in sin without repentance, while condemning others for their sins:


Few people see their own hypocrisy (whether that is visible on the outside or hidden on the inside), and it is easier to point a finger outward (toward others) than it is to look into a mirror (figuratively speaking).


Funny that hypocrisy and condemnation are not listed as one of the 'seven deadly sins' by a supposedly Christian organization... considering that Christ (the One who is supposed to be their leader and teacher and Lord) SAID:

Do not judge, or you will be judged. For with the same judgment you pronounce, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.…



Not 'may' be used against you. WILL be used against you.



And of course He also said this:


[Jesus] called the crowd to Him and said, “Listen and understand. A man is not defiled by what enters his mouth, but� by what comes out of it. Matt 15:10


Do you not yet realize that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then is eliminated? But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these things defile a man. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, and slander.… Matt 15:18,19




Some may put stock in the traditions of men. Some may judge by outward appearance. A Christian should be listening to the Word of God (Christ), and not judging AT ALL.


Pointing out a sin is not judging, mind you. But suggesting that someone deserves (or does not deserve) something (condemning), for any reason, including sin, IS judging.




Peace to you Z, and to your loved ones,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Zzyzx]

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Hi Tam, it is a pleasure

Sin is sin, and the wages of sin is death.

Okay, then gluttony and sloth are sin just as lust, pride and greed – and 'sin is sin'. Right?

Indeed, Christ did not even mention all of the sins from the so called 'seven deadly sins'.

Notice that the OP clearly said “church tradition (and Pope Gregory I).

Notice that one or two show physically – gluttony and possibly sloth.

And how would a person know the difference between someone who is overweight (as man deems it) due to gluttony versus being overweight due to genetics? Or perhaps even due to a medical condition?

What genetic or medical condition can cause a person to be overweight without eating more than their body requires to fill its energy needs?

When more food is consumed than is required it is stored as adipose tissue (body fat). A marathon runner is likely to need more food energy than someone who is sedentary – and can, therefore, consume more without adding body fat. A person who genetically has a high metabolism (or an inefficient digestive system) can also eat more without adding fat (which may seem like a 'blessing' – unless food is scarce, when that becomes a curse / disadvantage).

Christ did say that we are not to judge by outward appearance. Indeed, we are not to judge at all (unless one wishes to BE judged, because by the measure that we use to judge others, that will be used to judge US).

Is it 'judging' to observe that a five foot tall, 300 pound person with 40% body fat is overweight or obese?

Various health oriented organizations and agencies establish guidelines in relation to health and welfare issues. The most precise measure 'percent body fat' (not just height and weight or Body Mass Index – which means the same thing)

Greed may be evident outwardly as well. Let's just consider the most obvious and undeniable – gluttony – which is identified as; excessive ongoing consumption of food or drink.

Okay, but same question as above.

Same response

Excessive consumption is reflected in being overweight or obese. In spite of excuses, that condition results from consuming more food and drink than the body requires – gluttony.

"In spite of excuses"... sounds judgmental.

Opinion noted (and the opinion also 'sounds judgmental').

I make no claim to NOT 'judge' (evaluate) people with whom I associate or interact – and think it would be extremely naïve and gullible to not judge (evaluate).

Also, I have no fear of being 'judged' by some supernatural entity after I die. Religious threats don't frighten me and religious promises (of 'afterlife' rewards) do not impress me as being anything more than overworked imagination.

Do you know any overweight or obese people?

Yup. About 2/3 the people I meet are overweight or obese – perhaps even more here in Arkansas, one of the fattest states in the nation (statistics – not 'judgmental')

Do you know any that struggle their entire lives with their weight?

Yup. They have exhibited 'excessive ongoing consumption of food or drink' (the only way to become overweight – eat too much).

Those who have 'struggled' evidently realize that they eat too much (often unhealthy foods) BUT cannot or will not control their 'excessive ongoing consumption of food or drink'

Do you know how they feel (and are made to feel) by a world that values the outward appearance, and that judges them as being lazy or gluttonous, merely by appearance?

I have heard.

How do you account for every member of a family (generations) that have the same build? Is everyone in the family a glutton?

I have not encountered examples of 'EVERY member of a family having the same build'.

However, I can observe that genetics can influence body type (endomorph, mesomorph, ectomorph). However, it might be uncommon for EVERY member of a genetic lineage to exhibit 'the same build'.

Food habits can also be related to family practices. Some families glamorize or emphasize or encourage food consumption more than other families. Some families tend toward more physically active pursuits.

What about those who are poor and overweight, because they eat food that is bad, because that food is cheaper and/or easier, considering that they may have less time and energy on their hands?

I have been involved in teaching people (often 'poor') to shop for groceries wisely, buy healthy food, and cook healthy meals. The ladies involved in such teaching (I am their token male – one of the few they find who knows something about grocery shopping and food preparation) adopted a statement I made – “The junk food you DON'T buy will more than pay for the healthy food you DO buy'.

I do not accept 'it is easier' as an reason – only as an excuse for seeking the path of least effort (also sometimes reflective of laziness). And, I have seen no indication that 'poor' people in general have less time available for food preparation than not-poor people. Again, that makes a good excuse (see immediately below).

One might call these excuses, but they are still reasons.

In most instances in life there are

Good Reasons – what sounds good to the person or to others

Real Reasons – the actual factor(s) involved.

Often when one's decisions and actions turn out 'not so well' (or disastrous) they present a flurry of 'good reasons' and say nothing about (if they even know) the real reasons for their decisions and actions.

Indeed a skinny person could be far more gluttonous than an overweight person.

Correction: A skinny person who eats a lot does NOT consume more than their body requires (the definition of excessive eating)

Perhaps we should just not judge people over their appearance, or even over their weaknesses. Guaranteed, everyone has them (weaknesses/sins/etc), including you and me, etc.

Notice that the OP asks, 'How can they justify condemning the sins of others while being so obviously in sin themselves?' Often those who condemn the 'sin of lust' (sexual practices) of others WEAR evidence of their own gluttony (and perhaps sloth) – which are also among the 'Seven deadly sins' of Church tradition.

]Since two-thirds of the US population is overweight or obese AND most citizens self-identify as Christian it is safe to conclude that many Christians continuously commit one of the Seven Deadly Sins (though they may attempt to conceal their sin with clever use of clothing -- and living in denial or excuse-making).

I don't have more to say about this than what has already been said. Though perhaps one might consider that those who DO attempt to conceal being overweight with "clever use of clothing"... do so because people in this world make them ashamed of their bodies. Not because they are ashamed of their 'sin'.

Yup, let's blame 'people in this world' for making overweight people ashamed. Is that because they do not realize their condition themselves?

How can they justify condemning the sins of others while being so obviously in sin themselves?

I don't know how anyone can justify doing that.

Have you noticed many 'leading' Christians condemning people for 'lust'?

Everyone sins... so any condemning of anyone else for sin is condemning oneself.

Okay. Thus, Christians should follow their teachings and not condemn others. Right?

Regardless of what one looks like or how many fat cells one has. God sees what is inside a person... and what is inside does tend to manifest itself: via words and deeds.

That must be comforting to many people.

Now if your point (taking the focus off overweight people) is merely,

How do people justify living in sin without repentance, while condemning others for their sins:

Yes, that is a reasonable restatement of the OP question.

Few people see their own hypocrisy (whether that is visible on the outside or hidden on the inside),

Perhaps pointing out the hypocrisy is doing them a favor.

and it is easier to point a finger outward (toward others) than it is to look into a mirror (figuratively speaking).

Looking in a mirror (literally speaking) might allow many people to point their finger inward.

Funny that hypocrisy and condemnation are not listed as one of the 'seven deadly sins' by a supposedly Christian organization... considering that Christ (the One who is supposed to be their leader and teacher and Lord) SAID:

I do not put much stock in words attributed to Jesus for a couple reasons: 1) there is no assurance he actually said those words, and 2) there is no assurance that he was not just 'blowing smoke'.

Some may put stock in the traditions of men. Some may judge by outward appearance. A Christian should be listening to the Word of God (Christ),

We all live in the 'traditions of men', whether Christian or not. Christianity is 'traditions of men' based upon stories written by men.

and not judging AT ALL.

Should we NOT make a 'judgment' concerning the character of outstanding / upstanding members of the community vs. thieves, con artists, users, etc?

Pointing out a sin is not judging, mind you.

Wait a minute. Is it okay to point out that gluttony and sloth are 'sins'?

But suggesting that someone deserves (or does not deserve) something (condemning), for any reason, including sin, IS judging.

Has it been suggested in this thread that anyone be condemned?

It seems as though 'point out a sin' (gluttony and sloth) and pointing out hypocrisy are being challenged – as though it shouldn't be done(?) -- and the 'sins' of gluttony and sloth are given a flurry of excuses.

[tam]

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Hi Tam, it is a pleasure

Thank you Z. You make speaking with you a pleasure as well. I'm going to start with the last point you make, so you can read the rest of my post with that in mind, okay?

It seems as though 'point out a sin' (gluttony and sloth) and pointing out hypocrisy are being challenged – as though it shouldn't be done(?) -- and the 'sins' of gluttony and sloth are given a flurry of excuses.

Not at all.

What is being challenged is that being overweight is a direct result of gluttony (and only gluttony). And if gluttony is defined as simply as "eating more than the body requires", then I know no one who is not guilty of gluttony.

I am sure there are such people in the world, including people who can't even get enough that their body requires. But I know of no one who requires that bag of chips or chocolate bar, or that beer, or those extra fries, or that pop, etc.


Assuming that an overweight person is such because of gluttony or because they are lazy, is an assumption, is incorrect. Assuming that an overweight person is guilty of sin (particular sin causing them to be overweight, at least according to modern guidelines on what weight people should be) is also incorrect. It (being overweight because of overeating) might be correct in some cases, but how is one to know this merely by appearance?

Sin is sin, and the wages of sin is death.

Okay, then gluttony and sloth are sin just as lust, pride and greed – and 'sin is sin'. Right?

Perhaps, but by your definition of gluttony (eating more than the body requires), many people who are not overweight are also guilty.

Also, lust - if defined by sexual desire - is not necessarily a sin. Lusting after something (a house, a job, a car, a possession) or someone (a spouse) that/who belongs to someone else, is the sin.

Indeed, Christ did not even mention all of the sins from the so called 'seven deadly sins'.

Notice that the OP clearly said “church tradition (and Pope Gregory I).

Yes, and I was pointing out that this church tradition is meaningless. So that using this church tradition to point out sins in others would also be meaningless.

Notice that one or two show physically – gluttony and possibly sloth.

And how would a person know the difference between someone who is overweight (as man deems it) due to gluttony versus being overweight due to genetics? Or perhaps even due to a medical condition?

What genetic or medical condition can cause a person to be overweight without eating more than their body requires to fill its energy needs?

When more food is consumed than is required it is stored as adipose tissue (body fat). A marathon runner is likely to need more food energy than someone who is sedentary – and can, therefore, consume more without adding body fat. A person who genetically has a high metabolism (or an inefficient digestive system) can also eat more without adding fat (which may seem like a 'blessing' – unless food is scarce, when that becomes a curse / disadvantage).

http://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-h ... overweight


Its a good read. The first link that came up on google for me. I'm just going to highlight a couple parts:

Genes are probably a significant contributor to your obesity if you have most or all of the following characteristics:

You have been overweight for much of your life.
One or both of your parents or several other blood relatives are significantly overweight. If both of your parents have obesity, your likelihood of developing obesity is as high as 80%.
You can't lose weight even when you increase your physical activity and stick to a low-calorie diet for many months.

Notice the last point. "You can't lose weight even when you increase your physical activity and stick to a low-calorie diet for many months."


That person is not a glutton. That person is not lazy. That this is an option given in the study means that there are such people who this applies to.


Another point from the article:

In contrast, people with a strong genetic predisposition to obesity may not be able to lose weight with the usual forms of diet and exercise therapy. Even if they lose weight, they are less likely to maintain the weight loss. For people with a very strong genetic predisposition, sheer willpower is ineffective in counteracting their tendency to be overweight. Typically, these people can maintain weight loss only under a doctor's guidance. They are also the most likely to require weight-loss drugs or surgery.

Here are some environmental influences that are not in the person's control:

Environmental influences come into play very early, even before you're born. Researchers sometimes call these in-utero exposures "fetal programming." Babies of mothers who smoked during pregnancy are more likely to become overweight than those whose mothers didn't smoke. The same is true for babies born to mothers who had diabetes. Researchers believe these conditions may somehow alter the growing baby's metabolism in ways that show up later in life.

After birth, babies who are breast-fed for more than three months are less likely to have obesity as adolescents compared with infants who are breast-fed for less than three months.

You can read about stress and related issues further in the article, and also:

Clearly, our responses to today's obesity-promoting environment, in tandem with genetic influences, are the most significant causes of overweight and obesity. But in some people, drug side effects, illnesses, and genetic disorders can also play a role.

That is just one article.


**

Christ did say that we are not to judge by outward appearance. Indeed, we are not to judge at all (unless one wishes to BE judged, because by the measure that we use to judge others, that will be used to judge US).

Is it 'judging' to observe that a five foot tall, 300 pound person with 40% body fat is overweight or obese?

Various health oriented organizations and agencies establish guidelines in relation to health and welfare issues. The most precise measure 'percent body fat' (not just height and weight or Body Mass Index – which means the same thing)

No, it is not judging to observe that. But it may be judgmental to assume that the cause is gluttony and/or laziness. Or (and I am not saying you are doing this) to assume that a person who is overweight has something to be ashamed about, or that they are a sinner (which made them overweight), etc.

I make no claim to NOT 'judge' (evaluate) people with whom I associate or interact – and think it would be extremely naïve and gullible to not judge (evaluate).

Sure, but judging (evaluating) someone based upon appearance (as is being done in this case) is not based upon facts and can lead to spreading false and harmful information... according to the facts that there are other causes to obesity than overeating.


If I were overweight (and I am by about 15 pounds, but most of my life I have been very skinny), I would not feel that I even have to make excuses to anyone who thinks that they can judge (evaluate or look down upon) me by my weight.

Also, I have no fear of being 'judged' by some supernatural entity after I die. Religious threats don't frighten me and religious promises (of 'afterlife' rewards) do not impress me as being anything more than overworked imagination.

Okay...

Do you know any overweight or obese people?

Yup. About 2/3 the people I meet are overweight or obese – perhaps even more here in Arkansas, one of the fattest states in the nation (statistics – not 'judgmental')

Stating a fact is not a judgment. But it is not a fact that gluttony is the cause of obesity. It can be... but one cannot judge that by appearance alone, and so stating that obese people are guilty of gluttony (making them obese) is not a fact, and could then be 'bearing false witness.'

You strike me as a person who deals with facts; and a person who deals with facts will alter their opinion when facts demonstrate that their former opinion was incorrect.

Do you know any that struggle their entire lives with their weight?

Yup. They have exhibited 'excessive ongoing consumption of food or drink' (the only way to become overweight – eat too much).

The statement - excessive ongoing consumption of food or drink (the only way to become overweight) - is false.

Those who have 'struggled' evidently realize that they eat too much (often unhealthy foods) BUT cannot or will not control their 'excessive ongoing consumption of food or drink'

See above.

And while I might apologize for the... passion... that statements such as the above can bring out in me, people are being HURT by such ignorance. (Ignorance meaning a lack of knowledge in something.) People are being judged and shamed. And lies (said in ignorance or not) are being spread about them, causing people to think ill of them, to shame them, to make them ashamed of themselves. Adults AND children alike.

Do you know how they feel (and are made to feel) by a world that values the outward appearance, and that judges them as being lazy or gluttonous, merely by appearance?

I have heard.

But have you listened?

How do you account for every member of a family (generations) that have the same build? Is everyone in the family a glutton?

I have not encountered examples of 'EVERY member of a family having the same build'.

I have. (people with their immediate families; or from a couple generations... which is as far back as I have known people)

However, I can observe that genetics can influence body type (endomorph, mesomorph, ectomorph). However, it might be uncommon for EVERY member of a genetic lineage to exhibit 'the same build'.

It might be uncommon, but it does happen.

Food habits can also be related to family practices. Some families glamorize or emphasize or encourage food consumption more than other families. Some families tend toward more physically active pursuits.

Yes, that can be a contributing factor. At the same time, there are those who are overweight despite being physically active, and encouraging it in their families as well.


My objection was never against the idea that overeating can cause obesity. My objection was against the statement that obese people are overeaters and/or gluttons and/or lazy.

My objection is not solely emotional (the emotion comes from the unjust judgment and treatment of fellow human beings... and because of love for the truth and for those same fellow human beings). My objection is based upon facts.

What about those who are poor and overweight, because they eat food that is bad, because that food is cheaper and/or easier, considering that they may have less time and energy on their hands?

I have been involved in teaching people (often 'poor') to shop for groceries wisely, buy healthy food, and cook healthy meals. The ladies involved in such teaching (I am their token male – one of the few they find who knows something about grocery shopping and food preparation) adopted a statement I made – “The junk food you DON'T buy will more than pay for the healthy food you DO buy'.

I do not accept 'it is easier' as an reason – only as an excuse for seeking the path of least effort (also sometimes reflective of laziness). And, I have seen no indication that 'poor' people in general have less time available for food preparation than not-poor people. Again, that makes a good excuse (see immediately below).

I can accept all of the above, if indeed you have all the facts influencing your advice.


And as long as you are aware that the least effort (in food prep) does not equal laziness. A person might work two jobs and be a single parent; might have any number of situations that reflect a distinct LACK of laziness. But something has to go and that something was greater effort in food preparation.

One might call these excuses, but they are still reasons.

In most instances in life there are

Good Reasons – what sounds good to the person or to others

Real Reasons – the actual factor(s) involved.

Often when one's decisions and actions turn out 'not so well' (or disastrous) they present a flurry of 'good reasons' and say nothing about (if they even know) the real reasons for their decisions and actions.

This can be true, yes.

Indeed a skinny person could be far more gluttonous than an overweight person.

Correction: A skinny person who eats a lot does NOT consume more than their body requires (the definition of excessive eating)

I'm not sure that is true. A skinny person might just have the metabolism to burn off any extra that they consumed. I think I could have forgone all the candy and chocolate and chips that I ate when I was younger (I could still forgo them, lol). I could certainly have made healthier choices. I never gained an ounce though.

Perhaps we should just not judge people over their appearance, or even over their weaknesses. Guaranteed, everyone has them (weaknesses/sins/etc), including you and me, etc.

Notice that the OP asks, 'How can they justify condemning the sins of others while being so obviously in sin themselves?' Often those who condemn the 'sin of lust' (sexual practices) of others WEAR evidence of their own gluttony (and perhaps sloth) – which are also among the 'Seven deadly sins' of Church tradition.

Yes, but that is what I am challenging. That the appearance indicates (or proves) gluttony or sloth.

]Since two-thirds of the US population is overweight or obese AND most citizens self-identify as Christian it is safe to conclude that many Christians continuously commit one of the Seven Deadly Sins (though they may attempt to conceal their sin with clever use of clothing -- and living in denial or excuse-making).

I don't have more to say about this than what has already been said. Though perhaps one might consider that those who DO attempt to conceal being overweight with "clever use of clothing"... do so because people in this world make them ashamed of their bodies. Not because they are ashamed of their 'sin'.

Yup, let's blame 'people in this world' for making overweight people ashamed. Is that because they do not realize their condition themselves?

No, it is because people are ignorant about the causes of others being overweight, as if it is indicative of gluttony or sloth. As if they have any right to judge someone by their appearance, as if they know a person by their appearance. As if (in some cases) they are better than those who are overweight (harder working, more self-controlled, etc) Indeed, insults such as fat slob, cow, lazy pig, etc, are not uncommon; not among children or adults (who teach this to their children).

How can they justify condemning the sins of others while being so obviously in sin themselves?

I don't know how anyone can justify doing that.

Have you noticed many 'leading' Christians condemning people for 'lust'?

I don't pay attention (and so do not know) what some or many so called leading Christians condemn people for.

A Christian is told by their leader (Christ) NOT to condemn.

Everyone sins... so any condemning of anyone else for sin is condemning oneself.

Okay. Thus, Christians should follow their teachings and not condemn others. Right?

They should follow Christ's teachings and not condemn others. But yes, correct.

Regardless of what one looks like or how many fat cells one has. God sees what is inside a person... and what is inside does tend to manifest itself: via words and deeds.

That must be comforting to many people.

I am sure it would be.

Now if your point (taking the focus off overweight people) is merely,

How do people justify living in sin without repentance, while condemning others for their sins:

Yes, that is a reasonable restatement of the OP question.

Okay, good...

Few people see their own hypocrisy (whether that is visible on the outside or hidden on the inside),

Perhaps pointing out the hypocrisy is doing them a favor.

Perhaps, yes.

And if you love (and/or respect and/or care for) someone and you know that they would not want to be a hypocrite, then pointing out where they are being hypocritical might be a loving thing to do.

One would have to examine oneself to know one's motivations in that though.

and it is easier to point a finger outward (toward others) than it is to look into a mirror (figuratively speaking).

Looking in a mirror (literally speaking) might allow many people to point their finger inward.

Perhaps if they are looking into a mirror, and reflecting inwardly.

Funny that hypocrisy and condemnation are not listed as one of the 'seven deadly sins' by a supposedly Christian organization... considering that Christ (the One who is supposed to be their leader and teacher and Lord) SAID:

I do not put much stock in words attributed to Jesus for a couple reasons: 1) there is no assurance he actually said those words, and 2) there is no assurance that he was not just 'blowing smoke'.

Note that I said 'in what is supposedly a Christian organization'... So something that claims to have Christ as their leader. While not paying attention to His words over their own traditions/teachings.

Some may put stock in the traditions of men. Some may judge by outward appearance. A Christian should be listening to the Word of God (Christ),

We all live in the 'traditions of men', whether Christian or not. Christianity is 'traditions of men' based upon stories written by men.

We do not all live in the traditions of men... although some may think that this is true.

and not judging AT ALL.

Should we NOT make a 'judgment' concerning the character of outstanding / upstanding members of the community vs. thieves, con artists, users, etc?

I try not to do so. Especially since what we 'see' of a person might simply be an appearance and have nothing to do with what is truly in a person. A thief might never pass a homeless person without giving him something. An outstanding member of the community might turn their nose up at the beggar on the street corner.

A con artist might be the upstanding member of society ; )


I'm not going to trust someone I know to be a con artist. But that is based upon what he DOES. Not upon his appearance.

Pointing out a sin is not judging, mind you.

Wait a minute. Is it okay to point out that gluttony and sloth are 'sins'?

Sure, as long as it is true.

But suggesting that someone deserves (or does not deserve) something (condemning), for any reason, including sin, IS judging.

Has it been suggested in this thread that anyone be condemned?

No. Just pointing out the difference.



Peace again to you Z!


Your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[ttruscott]

How do they justify living in sin blatantly and without repentance?

How can they justify condemning the sins of others while being so obviously in sin themselves?

imCo
The list of sin and the laws against sin and evil are not given so men can change their ways. Men cannot change their ways without the grace of GOD through faith or men could save themselves by works.

Such laws are given to prove to men they are not Godly, they are falling short, they are not truly repentant. The law is used to open the eyes of people to their guilt and their need for a saviour. Period.

Why do I think this as a Christian? Romans 3:20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God's sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious / convicted of our sin.

Romans 7:7 ... Indeed, I would not have been mindful of sin if not for the Law.

The trials and errors of becoming righteous are detailed in Heb 12:5-11.

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 3:

Great response tam, and I agree with the gist of it, I just have me a quibble...

Perhaps we should just not judge people over their appearance, or even over their weaknesses. Guaranteed, everyone has them (weaknesses/sins/etc), including you and me, etc.

Yet God, an otherwise "perfect" entity, 'll judge us?


Miss tam, I always enjoy your positive outlook on things, and I'm proud to know you're here with us.

[Elijah John]

Is it 'judging' to observe that a five foot tall, 300 pound person with 40% body fat is overweight or obese?

No, that is an observation. Doctors often make such observations.

"Judging" would be to attribute that condition to sin in any particular case or to label obese Christians as "hypocrites".

At a glance, one does not know were the obese Christian (or anyone for that matter) is in their struggle, or what they are attempting to do about it.

Also, sometimes injuries prevent folks from excercizing properly, putting them at severe disadvantages in the fight against obesity.

Also, sugar is literally addicting much like alcohol. It sometimes takes many repeated efforts to overcome one's sugar addiction, which is insidious in the American diet, and often has hidden manifestations.

[Zzyzx]

.
Is there any correlation between obesity and Bible Belt location?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... y-U-S.html

[Elijah John]

Sin is sin, and the wages of sin is death. Christ mentioned only one unforgivable sin and none of the so called 'seven deadly sins' are that sin (blasphemy of the Holy Spirit).


Indeed, Christ did not even mention all of the sins from the so called 'seven deadly sins'.



"In spite of excuses"... sounds judgmental.

Anger is also one of he "seven deadly sins" and Christ mentioned anger as a sin in the Sermon on the Mount.

But I agree with much or most of your post here Tammy,(especially the "not-judging" part) except for the part that all sin is the same, clearly that is not the case.

A petty thief is not the same as a mass murderer. Jesus himself said made the distinction between sins of ignorance and willful sins. (many stripes, vs a few stripes punishment)

And yes, gluttony can be considered a sin, because excessive gluttony damages the Temple of one's body, a mild violation of the "Thou shalt not kill" commandment, at least if one continues on the path of over-eating and dies as a result.

But will, also comes into play here. A willful sin is more serious than other sins.

Catholics make moral distinctions by classifying sins as "venial" or "mortal". A mortal sin, as brother James states, is one that "leads to death". But he also states that not all sin leads to death.

I think Catholics are onto something here, and in this case teach real-world wisdom.

Even Muslims make moral distinctions, classifying actions as:

-Required
-Encouraged
-Allowed
-Discouraged
-Forbidden.

Much wisdom in Islam as well.

The inability to make moral distinctions is a sign of dogmatism, not wisdom.