Victim blaming to save God's character

[Justin108]

Jehovah always disciplines “to the proper degree.� (Jer. 30:11)

You mean like stoning someone to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath?

This man was obviously a rebel. Only Jehovah knows what was in that man's heart or what other sins he had committed. Again, you are judging only by what you hear but you do not know what kind of person that man was. The surrounding nations burned their children to death. Could that man have been a foreigner that joined the Hebrews that decided that he was going to gather wood to sacrifice one of his children? Perhaps he was a Hebrew who had turned his attention to Molech worship which is who children were sacrificed to. Who knows! Do not jump to the conclusion that God was in the wrong when the Bible says of Jehovah, 'He is perfect in His activity'. (Deuteronomy 32:4)

Are these kinds of assumptions at all justified? If a character in the Bible is judged in seemingly unfair ways, is it fair to just assume that the victim probably did other unmentioned evil actions? Or is this just an example of cognitive dissonance to absolve an apologist's internal conflict of having to worship a seemingly immoral God?

[William]

[Replying to post 1 by Justin108]

If a character in the Bible is judged in seemingly unfair ways, is it fair to just assume that the victim probably did other unmentioned evil actions? Or is this just an example of cognitive dissonance to absolve an apologist's internal conflict of having to worship a seemingly immoral God?

Where the argument fails is in the GOD making human beings mediators to his justice, rather than to do the killing himself.

This allows for confusion and distrust in relation to the motivations of those in positions of social influence doing things in the name of an invisible entity - which happens more often in the biblical stories than the GOD directly dishing out the punishment on the offenders.

When "it is written" is believed to be 'The Word of GOD' this instills a lack of ambition in most believers to question that word, and this leads to the type of denial/twisted justification which is apparent in the answers of these believers, in their posts on this and many other threads.

The belief in what is written absolves the believer of having to take a stand against the obvious evil perpetuated under the authority of the GOD, and the additional dogma of hell contributes to that fear-based necessity to follow the GOD without question.

Are people still subject to any punishment for not observing the Sabbath in today's modern world? Certainly they are not subjected to being stoned to death for working on that day.

Most likely in the ancient past, anyone observed breaking the tribal rules were seen as a deadly threat to the disciplined culture well entrenched in the goings on of the tribe, and such had to be dealt with swiftly and harshly as a deterrent to others not to stray but remain, towing the line.

Such stupid appearing laws still exist today, although death by stoning - while an ugly way to go is still not as harsh as prison time, which is by far the more painful physically, mentally and emotionally. But *shrugs*. "The tribe has spoken", and books are written and eventually revered on account of that.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 11 by William]

Such stupid appearing laws still exist today, although death by stoning - while an ugly way to go is still not as harsh as prison time,

Stoning...is NOT as harsh as prison time?

[Elijah John]

Jehovah always disciplines “to the proper degree.� (Jer. 30:11)

You mean like stoning someone to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath?

This man was obviously a rebel. Only Jehovah knows what was in that man's heart or what other sins he had committed. Again, you are judging only by what you hear but you do not know what kind of person that man was. The surrounding nations burned their children to death. Could that man have been a foreigner that joined the Hebrews that decided that he was going to gather wood to sacrifice one of his children? Perhaps he was a Hebrew who had turned his attention to Molech worship which is who children were sacrificed to. Who knows! Do not jump to the conclusion that God was in the wrong when the Bible says of Jehovah, 'He is perfect in His activity'. (Deuteronomy 32:4)

Are these kinds of assumptions at all justified? If a character in the Bible is judged in seemingly unfair ways, is it fair to just assume that the victim probably did other unmentioned evil actions? Or is this just an example of cognitive dissonance to absolve an apologist's internal conflict of having to worship a seemingly immoral God?

No, it is not fair to asuume the victim was guilty of anything more than "picking up sticks".

And @ 2 Timothy, how is this man "obviously a rebel" when by your own admission only "Jehovah knows" what was in the man's heart?

It was not Jehovah who was doing the stoning, it was imperfect human beings.

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to post 5 by OnceConvinced]

I don't answer loaded questions, so I will ignore what you asked.

I have already explained my view here (the link provided analyses the law itself and the post itself what we can reasonably deduce from the account).


I have written a post earlier on execution methods, here is the link in case you missed it
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 113#836113

Ok, judging by those posts, you have no problem with stoning as the death penalty.

So why did God feel the need to have humans perform this act for him?

There are many times in the bible where God did his own dirty work. Like when he turned Lot's wife into a pillar of salt of when he struck down dead the man who touched the Ark of the Covenant (oh what a horrible crime). Or what about Ananias, and Sapphira (Acts 5) Let's not even get into the times where God sent natural disasters and plagues to kill of people.

Was God not capable of executing the guy himself? Why use humans? Why get them to perform such a dastardly deed when he could have taken care of business himself?

[OnceConvinced]

Here is where I borrow a move from a theist and SMH.
According to you and your fellow JWs, God is the supreme being, in terms of both power and knowledge.
And yet...he can't come up with a pain free way to execute people in ancient Israel?

Actually it seems he was able to come up with his own pain free ways of executing people. I can't imagine that Lot's wife suffered when he turned her into a pillar of salt. With Annanias and Sapphira in Acts 11 God just caused them to drop down dead. God struck down Uzzah for touching the Ark of the Covenant (God's idol). It seemed it was all over in a second. With stoning you often get people dying slowly and in agony and no doubt JW can check out those videos to see for himself.

Clearly God is capable of giving quick painless executions and can do them himself without the need to have humans do his dirty work for him.

Where is the logic in suggesting that this being can snap his fingers and create universes, can command Abraham to not sacrifice his son...but he apparently can't have a method of execution that is painless, that he apparently has to go with stoning?

It seems that the bigger the crime, the more God is justified to use sadistic and inhuman methods to perform executions.

I just see no point in trying to justify God in all this. I figure, why not just admit that this wasn't a matter of God ordering a guy to be stoned to death. It was simply petty and angry humans being offended and justifying their abominable act by claiming that God demanded the stoning.

[OnceConvinced]

-----
ted says

Being born human is the declaration to the universe that GOD thinks we are evil.

I wonder what it is that makes you think being human is evil...
I could NEVER look at a newborn and say "Right! Evil! Evil incarnate!"

I know Ted can speak for himself on this, but he has regularly told us that he believes that humans existed pre-birth and that they sinned against God then. They were then sent to Earth kind of as a punishment and also to redeem themselves.

I hope I got it right this time, Ted!

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to post 11 by William]

Such stupid appearing laws still exist today, although death by stoning - while an ugly way to go is still not as harsh as prison time,

Stoning...is NOT as harsh as prison time?

I actually liked William's overall post as he said some good things, but yeah I would have to disagree with his statement here. I would much rather be locked up in a prison for the rest of my life than go through the horrors of being stoned. In fact I'm gonna start a thread on this one and poll people to see what people think would be worse.

viewtopic.php?t=32363&sid=08b12338b3fba ... 079323bb96

[ttruscott]

Where the argument fails is in the GOD making human beings mediators to his justice, rather than to do the killing himself.

YET in the stories where HE does step up and act for HIMself, hue and cry is raised for HIS personal cruelty, no?

If there is no win for HIM, then what does that say about the interpretation HIS detractors offer?? IF HE is so evil and hostile, why has anyone survived at all for so long? A Satanic God would have destroyed us, especially believers, a loooooong time ago, for what use are we to him except as sources of cruel pleasure??? IF HE is evil then righteousness is sin, right? Why did an evil God allow the holy angels to throw Satan down to the earth???

[ttruscott]

No, it is not fair to asuume the victim was guilty of anything more than "picking up sticks".

And @ 2 Timothy, how is this man "obviously a rebel" when by your own admission only "Jehovah knows" what was in the man's heart?

It was not Jehovah who was doing the stoning, it was imperfect human beings.

Deuteronomy 32:5 "They have acted corruptly toward Him, They are not His children, because of their defect; But are a perverse and crooked generation. or: their defect is that they are not HIS children...

We certainly assume that after being taught this doctrine, we might have met such a perverse illegitimate (reprobate) child at some time and if someone flaunted the law against resting as GOD HIMself rested, then why shouldn't the punishment by man be administered as the law directed??

You seem to assume this man was innocent...why do that when HE broke the holy law in front of everyone??? Does holiness mean nothing? Does law carry no weight?

[Zzyzx]

.
Thanks for the lesson in Christian attitudes.

No, it is not fair to asuume the victim was guilty of anything more than "picking up sticks".

And @ 2 Timothy, how is this man "obviously a rebel" when by your own admission only "Jehovah knows" what was in the man's heart?

It was not Jehovah who was doing the stoning, it was imperfect human beings.

Deuteronomy 32:5 "They have acted corruptly toward Him, They are not His children, because of their defect; But are a perverse and crooked generation. or: their defect is that they are not HIS children ....

We certainly assume that after being taught this doctrine, we might have met such a perverse illegitimate (reprobate) child at some time and if someone flaunted the law against resting as GOD HIMself rested, then why shouldn't the punishment by man be administered as the law directed??

You seem to assume this man was innocent...why do that when HE broke the holy law in front of everyone??? Does holiness mean nothing? Does law carry no weight?

Yes, he was GUILTY so he should Die, Die, Die because he picked up sticks.

He was CORRUPT and therefore God should reject him and disown him -- and order his chosen people to KILL the corrupt person.

EVERY Christian or Jew should be KILLED if they break ANY Commandment from God. Right?

Whew. I'm certainly fortunate to have not been indoctrinated so thoroughly that I would condone / excuse / defend killing someone for picking up sticks (or having sex or being homosexual or disobeying parents).