JWs consider God's Kingdom to be a Government

[JehovahsWitness]

Jehovah's Witnesses believe God's Kingdom for which many Christians have prayed throughout the ages to be a (heavenly) government (three words).

What, in three or four words if possible, do you believe it to be?

(Many Christians I have met have said its "A feeling" (in one's heart).

[onewithhim]

It is quite a cop-out for someone to say, "Yeah the Bible says thus and so, but I'm going to look at the culture." Then they go on to describe the culture as something that it wasn't! "Primitive" some people say? And a God that was easily angered & just waiting to punish? The Israelites were neither primitive nor was God encumbered with a hair-trigger temper. Your view of both Jewish culture AND God is, unfortunately, not based on facts at all.

How did Jesus make it "very clear" that his coming had nothing to do with setting up an earthly kingdom?

Also, Jesus never CONTRADICTED the Old Testament. He just embellished it, gave it more meaning. Many times he was not referring to the O.T. at all, but the writings of the rabbis...the Talmud. Those things he would contradict. The Talmud was not from God. And Jesus never broke God's laws. Not once. He did break some laws that the Jews dreamed up themselves, beyond God's laws. They prohibited someone to eat a meal unless they had washed their hands up to their ELBOWS. This was never a law from God. But the Jewish religious leaders condemned Jesus and his disciples for not doing so.

A person had best do research before making statements such as you have, and not take the word of some Sunday School teacher or even a pastor.

And you didn't answer how Revelation has already been fulfilled and yet Satan, death, suffering and tears of sorrow are still here. If Revelation has already been fulfilled, then those things would not still exist.

.

I understand that you do not like my observations. But simply saying that my comments are untrue because they don't jibe with your preconceptions or making assumptions about my degree of study in this area is hardly a basis for a counter argument.

I didn't "simply say" that your comments aren't true. I asked you questions so that we could further discuss certain points. Will you answer them, please? I am interested in your viewpoint as you respond to my questions.

The questions are neither difficult nor irrelevant. You say that Revelation was written for the first century Christians and that it does not apply to our day. Then please explain why some of the prophesies in Revelation (no more death, no more tears of sorrow & pain, and no more Devil) have not been fulfilled yet. Didn't you indicate that Revelation was fulfilled in the first century? And just how did Jesus make it "very clear" that his coming had nothing to do with setting up his Kingdom over the earth? If you would explain these things, maybe we could be enlightened.

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[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 112 by JehovahsWitness]

God's kingdom is a govenemental system of rulership made up of Jesus and his faithful co-rulers (see Rev20:6). This government will soon...

Your statement seems to imply that "God's kingdom is" now in existence and "will soon" act in a certain way.

If so, where is it today and what is it now doing? If not, why not?

Jesus said much about the kingdom in the Gospels.

Why does your explanation not incorporate or cite how he explained what the kingdom is like?

I'm sure that if you clicked on the info that JW had made available, you would have had your questions answered.

It has been explained, I believe, that God's Kingdom was installed in heaven 100 years ago, and that Jesus has been guiding his followers in the preaching work so that all the world can be made aware of what is coming to pass. (Matt.24:14) As He said: "then the end will come." What end? The end of all wickedness and mayhem and insecurity. Jesus will take over the government of planet Earth from heaven.

What Jesus said about the Kingdom in the Gospels harmonizes with what his true followers have been teaching for the better part of 100 years.


.

[Checkpoint]

I believe both the sheep and the goats reside inside us. When we allow the Spirit to work in our lives, we recognize the difference between the two and can act accordingly.

What you say does not alter the fact that Jesus was talking of a coming judgment that results in the division the saved and the unsaved, which he calls sheep and goats.

His talk was usually a mixture of metaphor and plain language.

[kayky]

It is quite a cop-out for someone to say, "Yeah the Bible says thus and so, but I'm going to look at the culture." Then they go on to describe the culture as something that it wasn't! "Primitive" some people say? And a God that was easily angered & just waiting to punish? The Israelites were neither primitive nor was God encumbered with a hair-trigger temper. Your view of both Jewish culture AND God is, unfortunately, not based on facts at all.

How did Jesus make it "very clear" that his coming had nqothing to do with setting up an earthly kingdom?

Also, Jesus never CONTRADICTED the Old Testament. He just embellished iTunes, gave it more meaning. Many times he was not referring to the O.T. at all, but the writings of the rabbis...the Talmud. Those things he would contradict. The Talmud was not from God. And Jesus never broke God's laws. Not once. He did break some laws that the Jews dreamed up themselves, beyond God's laws. They prohibited someone to eat a meal unless they had washed their hands up to their ELBOWS. This was never a law from God. But the Jewish religious leaders condemned Jesus and his disciples for not doing so.

A person had best do research before making statements such as you have, and not take the word of some Sunday School teacher or even a pastor.

And you didn't answer how Revelation has already been fulfilled and yet Satan, death, suffering and tears of sorrow are still here. If Revelation has already been fulfilled, then those things would not still exist.

.

I understand that you do not like my observations. But simply saying that my comments are untrue because they don't jibe with your preconceptions or making assumptions about my degree of study in this area is hardly a basis for a counter argument.

I didn't "simply say" that your comments aren't true. I asked you questions so that we could further discuss certain points. Will you answer them, please? I am interested in your viewpoint as you respond to my questions.

The questions are neither difficult nor irrelevant. You say that Revelation was written for the first century Christians and that it does not apply to our day. Then please explain why some of the prophesies in Revelation (no more death, no more tears of sorrow & pain, and no more Devil) have not been fulfilled yet. Didn't you indicate that Revelation was fulfilled in the first century? And just how did Jesus make it "very clear" that his coming had nothing to do with setting up his Kingdom over the earth? If you would explain these things, maybe we could be enlightened.

.

Speaking the truth is hardly a "cop-out." The ancient Israelites could be quite barbaric. For example, the tribes of the ancient Near East had a custom called "herem." They would kill every living thing of an enemy tribe, including children and livestock, as a sacrifice to their gods. Ancient Israel engages in this same behavior on more than one occasion in the Hebrew Bible. I'm sure they thought they were honoring God by giving him credit for such atrocities. Not the God I know.

Abraham was not a true monotheist. He simply looked at the Canaanite pantheon and chose the head god El, the father of Baal, to be his family's only god. This god would lead Israel to victory in battle because he was more powerful than the gods of other tribes. Yet polytheism flourished in Israel for centuries before the nation would embrace true monotheism.

God often moves like a wrecking ball, destroying cities, sending plagues, sending bears to eat children--at one point wiping out the entire human population except for one family with a flood. This is a very primitive view of God.

Did Jesus come to set up an earthly kingdom?

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. (John 18:36)

Where did Jesus say his kingdom could be found?

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. (Luke 17:21)

Did Jesus ever contradict the Hebrew Bible?

f there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. (Exodus 21:23-25)

You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for tooth." But I say to you, do not resist evil-doers...(Matthew 5:38-39)

Also Jesus broke Torah law by healing on the Sabbath.

As for the Revelation, it should be understood that even including this book in the Canon was very controversial. It was barely voted in. Also, Satan can only be thought of as a metaphor for evil. Demons and angels are mythological creatures.

John obviously thought these events were at hand and that the end of the world was nigh. He was obviously wrong. So if Revelation is your basis of understanding for how God has or will deal with the world, you are working with faulty information.

I will say this, however. You can choose to live in God's kingdom at any moment. And you will find strength and comfort there.

[JehovahsWitness]

Also Jesus broke Torah law by healing on the Sabbath.

You are wrong, there is no law in the Torah that prohibits healing on the Sabbath. Jesus never broke any part of the Mosaic law.

JW

[kayky]

Also Jesus broke Torah law by healing on the Sabbath.

You are wrong, there is no law in the Torah that prohibits healing on the Sabbath. Jesus never broke any part of the Mosaic law.

JW

So this is the only thing you choose to respond to? Actually any kind of work was forbidden on the Sabbath. When Jesus heals the lame man on the Sabbath and tells him to pick up his cot and walk, he is ordering this man to break the Sabbath. The man is actually accosted on the street by religious leaders for carrying his cot on the sabbath.

So are you just getting started, or do you intend to ignore the rest of my post?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 124 by kayky]


Many people that believe God's kingdom is merely a "feeling" in the hearts of Christians and support this by referring to Jesus' words at Luke 17:21.

LUKE 17:21
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

What did Jesus really mean? And can this verse be properly translated alternatively?

The Greek word rendered "within" in the verse above is ENTOS (Strongs #1787) and interestingly the BDAG indicates �ντος can mean either "inside" or "among".



Given that the word can be used to speak of that which is "within/inside" (indicating the interior of the person) or "amongst" (indicating external to the individual), how can we accurately determine what Jesus really meant?

CONTEXT IS KING

A look at the context of Jesus words give us sufficient indication that Jesus was not indicating that the kingdom was within those to whom he addressed the words. Jesus was at the time speaking to the PHARISSEES a group of religious leaders who opposed him and shared in arranging for his execution. Indeed Jesus has explicitly stated what, as a class, what was "within" these individuals, stating: “Inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.� (Matthew 23:27, 28). How logical is it then to conclude that Jesus was telling those same individuals that the kingdom was within them?

An alternative reading that while the writer of Luke explicitly has Jesus addressing the Pharisees was actually speaking to believers in general makes for an awkward imposition at best and still has to deal with the contextual difficulties of the Kingdom being presented as and external power in numerous passages.


Various translations.

Logically then, various translators have chosen to opt for a word that allows for the reading that he (Jesus) as a representative of God's heavenly kingdom was in their midst. (compare Is 9:6).

New International Version
nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is in your midst."

New Living Translation
You won't be able to say, 'Here it is!' or 'It's over there!' For the Kingdom of God is already among you."

English Standard Version
nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.�

Berean Study Bible
Nor will people say, 'Look, here it is,' or 'There it is.' For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

Berean Literal Bible
nor will they say, 'Behold here,' or 'There.' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

New American Standard Bible
nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or, 'There it is!' For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

Holman Christian Standard Bible
no one will say, 'Look here!' or 'There!' For you see, the kingdom of God is among you."

International Standard Version
People won't be saying, 'Look! Here it is!' or 'There it is!' because now the kingdom of God is among you."

NET Bible
nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or 'There!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is in your midst."

New American Standard 1977
nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.�

King James 2000 Bible
Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.

Darby Bible Translation
nor shall they say, Lo here, or, Lo there; for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.

WHAT is God's Kingdom?

This is also in line with the biblical features of the kingdom that indicate that rather than being an internal experience, is presented as a an external reality, with a number of co-rulers (Rev 20:6), whose location, rather than being in the figurative organs of believers, is often refered to as being the kingdom of the heavens which will take action against other "kingdoms" comparable to that of the neo-Babylonians, the Grecians and the Romans ie. literal governmental powers (see Dan 2:44).


CONCLUSION: The context and biblical features of the kingdom lend to Jesus meaning that the Kingdom was indeed "among" or in the midst of his first century listeners in himself as its representative rather than that it was a psychological experience of believers.

[JehovahsWitness]

Actually any kind of work was forbidden on the Sabbath.

You are wrong. Jesus himself in his defence against the Pharisees that had the same legalistic mindset you are verbalizing, illustrated that the work in the temple continued regardless of the day of the week and that by catagorizing actions of common human decency as "work" they had distorted the intentions of the law.

Still, if you would like to provide a law that prohibits "healing" as you put it, feel free.

When Jesus heals the lame man on the Sabbath and tells him to pick up his cot and walk, he is ordering this man to break the Sabbath.

That is utterly false. There was no law against carrying anything much less one's bed. Jesus if he was doing anything he was ordering him to break the oral law and traditions that he (Jesus) went out of his way to demonstrate had no basis in scripture.

But again, if you think you can find a law in the Mosaic law code that prohibits carrying a cot on the Sabbath... be my guest.

JW

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 112 by JehovahsWitness]

God's kingdom is a govenemental system of rulership made up of Jesus and his faithful co-rulers (see Rev20:6). This government will soon...

Your statement seems to imply that "God's kingdom is" now in existence and "will soon" act in a certain way.

If so, where is it today and what is it now doing? If not, why not?

Jesus said much about the kingdom in the Gospels.

Why does your explanation not incorporate or cite how he explained what the kingdom is like?

I'm sure that if you clicked on the info that JW had made available, you would have had your questions answered.

It has been explained, I believe, that God's Kingdom was installed in heaven 100 years ago, and that Jesus has been guiding his followers in the preaching work so that all the world can be made aware of what is coming to pass. (Matt.24:14) As He said: "then the end will come." What end? The end of all wickedness and mayhem and insecurity. Jesus will take over the government of planet Earth from heaven.

What Jesus said about the Kingdom in the Gospels harmonizes with what his true followers have been teaching for the better part of 100 years.
.

That is not a tenable position, onewithhim.

Quite a lot of what Jesus said about the kingdom does not "harmonise with what his true followers have been teaching".

Matthew 24:14 covers the whole of this age, not just the last 100 years of it.

God's kingdom was not "installed" 100 years ago.

Answers to my questions?

I do not read literature posted, as I expect answers from posters themselves, not quotes from others, thankyou.

[onewithhim]

It is quite a cop-out for someone to say, "Yeah the Bible says thus and so, but I'm going to look at the culture." Then they go on to describe the culture as something that it wasn't! "Primitive" some people say? And a God that was easily angered & just waiting to punish? The Israelites were neither primitive nor was God encumbered with a hair-trigger temper. Your view of both Jewish culture AND God is, unfortunately, not based on facts at all.

How did Jesus make it "very clear" that his coming had nqothing to do with setting up an earthly kingdom?

Also, Jesus never CONTRADICTED the Old Testament. He just embellished iTunes, gave it more meaning. Many times he was not referring to the O.T. at all, but the writings of the rabbis...the Talmud. Those things he would contradict. The Talmud was not from God. And Jesus never broke God's laws. Not once. He did break some laws that the Jews dreamed up themselves, beyond God's laws. They prohibited someone to eat a meal unless they had washed their hands up to their ELBOWS. This was never a law from God. But the Jewish religious leaders condemned Jesus and his disciples for not doing so.

A person had best do research before making statements such as you have, and not take the word of some Sunday School teacher or even a pastor.

And you didn't answer how Revelation has already been fulfilled and yet Satan, death, suffering and tears of sorrow are still here. If Revelation has already been fulfilled, then those things would not still exist.

.

I understand that you do not like my observations. But simply saying that my comments are untrue because they don't jibe with your preconceptions or making assumptions about my degree of study in this area is hardly a basis for a counter argument.

I didn't "simply say" that your comments aren't true. I asked you questions so that we could further discuss certain points. Will you answer them, please? I am interested in your viewpoint as you respond to my questions.

The questions are neither difficult nor irrelevant. You say that Revelation was written for the first century Christians and that it does not apply to our day. Then please explain why some of the prophesies in Revelation (no more death, no more tears of sorrow & pain, and no more Devil) have not been fulfilled yet. Didn't you indicate that Revelation was fulfilled in the first century? And just how did Jesus make it "very clear" that his coming had nothing to do with setting up his Kingdom over the earth? If you would explain these things, maybe we could be enlightened.

.

Speaking the truth is hardly a "cop-out." The ancient Israelites could be quite barbaric. For example, the tribes of the ancient Near East had a custom called "herem." They would kill every living thing of an enemy tribe, including children and livestock, as a sacrifice to their gods. Ancient Israel engages in this same behavior on more than one occasion in the Hebrew Bible. I'm sure they thought they were honoring God by giving him credit for such atrocities. Not the God I know.

Abraham was not a true monotheist. He simply looked at the Canaanite pantheon and chose the head god El, the father of Baal, to be his family's only god. This god would lead Israel to victory in battle because he was more powerful than the gods of other tribes. Yet polytheism flourished in Israel for centuries before the nation would embrace true monotheism.

God often moves like a wrecking ball, destroying cities, sending plagues, sending bears to eat children--at one point wiping out the entire human population except for one family with a flood. This is a very primitive view of God.

Did Jesus come to set up an earthly kingdom?

Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. (John 18:36)

Where did Jesus say his kingdom could be found?

Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. (Luke 17:21)

Did Jesus ever contradict the Hebrew Bible?

f there is harm, then you shall pay life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. (Exodus 21:23-25)

You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for tooth." But I say to you, do not resist evil-doers...(Matthew 5:38-39)

Also Jesus broke Torah law by healing on the Sabbath.

As for the Revelation, it should be understood that even including this book in the Canon was very controversial. It was barely voted in. Also, Satan can only be thought of as a metaphor for evil. Demons and angels are mythological creatures.

John obviously thought these events were at hand and that the end of the world was nigh. He was obviously wrong. So if Revelation is your basis of understanding for how God has or will deal with the world, you are working with faulty information.

I will say this, however. You can choose to live in God's kingdom at any moment. And you will find strength and comfort there.

You continue to evade my question. Can you just answer my simple question? I don't care about your off-the-wall ideas about the "barbaric" Israelites and the questionable veracity of the Revelation, etc. I just want you to explain to me (1) why you say that the Revelation was written about events in the first century (and not about the future) when everything that is found written in it has not come to pass. When did Satan get thrown into the lake of fire? When did God bring an end to painful tears and suffering and even death itself? (2) You said that Jesus made it "very clear" that he was not going to set up a kingdom here on Earth. I asked you to provide that Scripture wherein he makes it "very clear." It is NOT clear when you quote Jesus saying that his Kingdom is not of this world. That doesn't tell us that he doesn't intend to rule the earth. It only tells us that the seat of his government is in heaven---the Source from whence he gets his authority. It is also erroneous to refer to his statement that "the Kingdom of God is IN YOUR MIDST" means that it is inside of people's hearts. He was speaking to the Pharisees. Did THEY have the Kingdom in their hearts? Apparently not! You avoid the verses such as Daniel 2:44 and Isaiah 9:6,7 that reveal a powerful, real government by God that will rule the earth.

I would appreciate a clear, concise answer. Thank you.


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