JESUS IS NOT YHWH

[onewithhim]

Jesus prayed to YHWH, the Father, not to himself. (E.g., Matthew 26:39,42; John 11:41,42; John 17:1-26.) Would he have been praying to himself?

He continually referred to himself as "God's SON," not YHWH Himself. (John 5:19; John 8:28,29; John 10:36; John 17:1.) Even the Jews who hated him recognized that fact (John 19:7). Can he be his own Son?

He applied Isaiah 61:1,2 to himself, at Luke 4:17-21, showing that he was the one anointed BY YHWH, and sent BY YHWH. There are incontrovertibly two Persons mentioned in the passage, and YHWH is the One calling the shots. The anointed one does what YHWH wants. How could they be the same Person?

Psalm 110 is also applied to Jesus at Acts 2:34,35. He is the "Lord," or Messiah, that YHWH speaks to. Was YHWH talking to Himself?


I think that just these few points would show plainly that Jesus is not YHWH. Can anyone explain how THESE REFERENCES, ABOVE, can possibly agree with the premise that Jesus is YHWH? I'm not asking for other Scriptures to be brought in without commenting ON the verses I am asking about. Please give me your reasoning concerning these particular Scriptures. Thank you.

[Donray]

[Replying to post 124 by Donray]

Is this the best thread for this private debate?

Not private, you brought up the subject that there is only one god.

Care to answer any of my questions?

The subject of this topic is if Jesus is God or a god or just what. If all gods are the creation of man what difference does it make so proving that the Jewish god is the only is relevant.

I go with the JWs and that there are many gods, Jesus being one of them.

[JehovahsWitness]

You will notice that Lord is not in caps. Yet the Hebrew that ultimately lies behind it is Yahweh.

QUESTION: Do modern day English translations replace the Divine Name (YHWH) with the word "Lord", using in capital letters signal they are replacing the Tetragrammaton ?

"The KJV, as with most other translations, uses "LORD" (in all capital letters) to refer to the covenant name of God. The Hebrew word is "יהוה" (YHWH), which is called the Tetragrammaton"
http://www.kjvtoday.com/home/lord-or-je ... genesis-24

[There] two opposing viewpoints amongst translators today. One is to follow the long established practice of substituting a title for the TG, usually LORD in all capitals. Smith and Goodspeed’s American Translation calls this following “the orthodox Jewish tradition.�
http://www.biblecollectors.org/articles ... mmaton.htm

The American Standard Version The King James Version [...], used the English word LORD (or in certain cases GOD) printed in capitals. The present revision returns to the procedure of the King James Version.

[JehovahsWitness]

When Paul translates O.T. in which the Hebrew is clearly Yahweh, he uses Kurios.

You are wrong.






Is there evidence that the writers of the original Christian Greek bible retained the Divine name (YHWH) in their text?
viewtopic.php?p=822272#822272

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[JehovahsWitness]

The Hebrew behind LORD is transliterated Yahweh

The Hebrew behind Lord is Yahweh.

No it is not. You are wrong
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 698#872698

I think this is pretty good evidence that Kurios was the selected Greek term for the Hebrew Yahweh.

If by "the selected Greek term" you mean the word copyists and translators have chosen to use to replace the Divine Name (YHWH), then yes. If you mean the Greek translation of the tetragramaton (YHWH) then...

...no, you are wrong.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 698#872698

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 111 by onewithhim]

I can see now how absurd it is to say that a person is worshiping one God when they say that each member of the Trinity is God! That adds up to THREE Gods, no matter how they try to deny it. Yes, Trinitarians do NOT agree with that assessment, and I am baffled as to why they can't see it.

Maybe they see something you cannot.

There is not one Trinitarian that I have crossed paths with that can explain the Trinity. They all admit that it is a "mystery" and cannot be explained. So obviously they are not seeing something that I cannot. They actually see LESS than what I see.

I stand by everything I said in my post, and if anyone has any questions in mind, I hope they re-read my post. It really does make sense.

.

[onewithhim]

I don't understand why the JWs want to argue there heresy so much. Do they think that the 99% the believe in the trinity are going to be swayed?

Why they go to pope and convince him.

Again, the church that created the trinity was much closer to actual original NT texts then anyone is today. They also had access to many religious texts that are no longer available. Maybe in the Vatican library under lock and key.

The JWs believe in at least two gods as they have pointed out in this thread. They believe Jesus is the son of God and a human which by definition makes him at least a demigod. They also believe Jesus is divine

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divinity

In religious terms, divinity or godhead is the state of things that come from a supernatural power or deity, such as a god, supreme being, creator deity, or spirits, and are therefore regarded as sacred and holy.[1][2][3] Such things are regarded as "divine" due to their transcendental origins or because their attributes or qualities are superior or supreme relative to things of the Earth.[1] Divine things are regarded as eternal and based in truth,[1] while material things are regarded as ephemeral and based in illusion. Such things that may qualify as "divine" are apparitions, visions, prophecies, miracles, and in some views also the soul, or more general things like resurrection, immortality, grace, and salvation. Otherwise what is or is not divine may be loosely defined, as it is used by different belief systems.
The root of the word "divine" is literally "godly" (from the Latin deus, cf. Dyaus, closely related to Greek zeus, div in Persian and deva in Sanskrit), but the use varies significantly depending on which deity is being discussed. This article outlines the major distinctions in the conventional use of the terms.

The reason for trinity is to get rid of the multiple gods that the bible implies.

Does it matter if some Christians believe in multiple gods or the trinity?

How often does someone have to tell you that the majority is not always right? How many more times is someone going to have to remind you of Matthew 7:13,14 before you stop talking about the 99% ?


"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are FEW who find it." (Matt.7:13,14, NASB)

The reason for the trinity cannot be for getting rid of multiple gods, because the trinity itself entertains the idea of multiple gods. Father = God; Son = God; H.S. = God. How many Gods?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 118 by BusB]

You don't understand history.. We have created many gods over the hundreds of thousand year humans have been around. The Jewish god was created about 1000BC until about 500BC the Jewish people had multiple gods.

There are many reference in the Hebrew bible that they once did have multiple gods.

Uh, yeah. Why would you say that some of the people here don't understand history? We know that men have created many gods for themselves, and Paul says as much at I Corinthians 8:4-6. And we know that the Jews left the pure worship of Jehovah and worshiped many false gods. That is why they were conquered and had their temple torn down twice.

I don't know what you mean by "the Jewish god was created about 1,000 B.C. until about 500 B.C. How do you come by that?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 127 by liamconnor]

No, friend, YOU are confused. I have nothing further to say to you, as I see you merely want to denigrate my position without any meaningful discussion. You have no understanding of the Tetragrammaton and what it means and how prevalent it is in the Bible. There can be no meaningful exchange of thoughts between two people, one of which doesn't know about that of which he speaks.

[Donray]

I don't know what you mean by "the Jewish god was created about 1,000 B.C. until about 500 B.C. How do you come by that?

You do know that the OT did not exist before 800 BCE. Previous to this date the Jewish people worshipped many gods.

If you have logical evidence to dispute this present it.

http://booksnthoughts.com/ancient-jews- ... many-gods/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dating_the_Bible

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me" Why not say I am the only god? What about man crested like us not me? Many things in the OT indicate there are other gods. What about Exodus where God was going up against the Egyptian gods that did many of the things God did?

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 139 by Donray]

Donray,

I do not think this is the place for the debate you are wishing to engage.

Perhaps start a new thread?