When I learned that the Bible speaks of a restored Garden of Eden and the restoration of mankind to the perfection and endless life that Adam forfeited, I was thrilled. Who doesn't want to keep living on this beautiful earth, with our loved ones, and being able to do all the things we love to do---endlessly?
If God said to you today, "When do you want to die?" would you say "now!!"? I don't think very many people would say that.
We CAN live forever here on Earth. The Bible tells us that we can.
Matthew 5:5
Psalm 37:9-11,29
Paradise on Earth
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onewithhim
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RightReason
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Post #631
[Replying to onewithhim]
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But Jesus promised that his Church would never apostatize. He told Peter, "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18). If his Church had apostatized, then the gates of hell would have prevailed against it, making Christ a liar.
In other passages, Christ teaches the same truth. In Matthew 28:20 he said, "I am with you always even until the end of the world." And in John 14:16, 18 he said, "And I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you forever ... I will not leave you desolate."
They are, however, fulfilling Scripture. While Jesus taught that his Church would never apostatize, the Bible does teach that there will be a great apostasy, or falling away from the Church. Paul prophesies: "[Do not] be quickly shaken in mind or excited . . . to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion [Greek: apostasia] comes first" (2 Thess. 2:2–3); "Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons" (1 Tim. 4:1); and, "For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own liking, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths" (2 Tim. 4:3–4). By falling away from the Church, members like Jehovah Witness, Mormons, etc.
The Bible tells us in 1 John 4:1: "Do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world."
https://www.catholic.com/tract/iglesia-ni-cristo
Also, Scripture shows how Christ would not have let His Church be invisible for awhile and remain hidden and not pop up again until Charles Russell came along.
*****************************************************************
Christ speaks of a visible Church when he recommends recourse to it for settling disputes among his followers: "Refer it to the Church" (Matt. 18:17).
How could people have referred to the Church prior to the founding of JW?
He tells his followers, who make us the Church on earth, that they are "the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lampstand, where it gives light to all in the house" (Matt. 5:14-15; see also Luke 8:16,11:33).
Hmmm . . . where was the unhidden visible Church, set on a mountain prior to Charles Russell? Where did the people go before JW came along? Where was their church?
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print ... -invisible
I’m sorry but JW teaching makes no sense. It boils down to 5 men in a room taking only Sacred Scripture (handed to them by my Church) and translating it to their liking. They without authority determined l44,000 as literal, without authority they falsely prophesied end times, without authority they declared to have determined apostasy, without authority they missed that which is literal (the True Presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist), without authority they deny the divinity of Jesus Christ. I could go on and on. So, again I think you are very mistaken. Do you consider yourself a daughter of Christ? Do you consider yourself an heir? Do you desire, like any little girl, to one day be taken in your Father’s arms? To spend time with Him? There is so much more than the JW organization can give you. We want you home. Home isn’t based on a geographical location. Home is being with our Father in heaven.
It strikes me odd that you don’t realize I could make the same comment about you, however I recognize that it isn’t simply that you aren’t listening. It is just that the JW organization is set up and designed to prevent questioning of its doctrine and history. And I also recognize that when you speak lies about the Church like her being in bed with politicians or having fallen into apostasy you are simply regurgitating anti Catholic propaganda from Watchtower tracts and do not fully understand what the Catholic Church actually is and teaches.I wonder if you are not interested in what someone has to say, but are only trying to tear down instead of building up
This was my point. JW’s claimed with quite insistency that they knew the year, day, and hour, even when warned not too. And this is the reason many joined their numbers. It is what attracted their first followers. If they got it wrong about “knowing for sure� the last day, what makes you think they “know for sure� the Catholic Church isn’t Christ’s established Church and that Christians should really be following the organization Charles Russell started? Quite frankly that requires a leap a faith that has no logical or Scriptural backing. Jesus promised to remain with His Church until the end. And He warns us to not listen to false prophets that come along. He told us to listen to the Church, who He gave the power to guide us in all truth and even forgive sins! Can JW’s forgive sins? Have they been error free in all their teachings on matters of faith and morals? If you can’t answer yes to those questions than JW cannot be Christ’s established Church. Please think about that.JWs stopped trying to figure out the year that Christ would come in his Kingdom power. They gave educated guesses but were wrong, as so many others have done. They did not claim to be giving prophecy from God, but only what they thought they discerned from examining the Scriptures. They are not prophets, but are watchmen, assigned to warn of coming events. They have been giving a warning, though venturing into precise dates which it would have been better of them not to have ventured. We know that we are in the last days, as even many churches in Christendom acknowledge. We just do not know the year, day or hour.
Yes, I am well aware of what Scripture says about apostasy and JW interpretation of it is yet one more thing JW’s interpret incorrectly.I am not bothered in the least about knowing whether or not my organization is the Church established by Jesus Christ. I know that it is. This organization was started with Jesus himself, and his teachings were the basis of belief then, until after the first century when the Apostacy began to have a strong foothold. Jesus told his disciples about that apostacy, and it would last from the first century until the "harvest time," or, "the last days," or, "the end time." (Matt.13) Paul warned:
"I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them." (Acts 20:29,30, NASB)
That actually happened, and the Roman Catholic Church had its start. It is now time for the "false sons of the Kingdom" to be revealed. It is the "harvest time" of Matthew 13; the "end time" of Daniel ch.12.
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But Jesus promised that his Church would never apostatize. He told Peter, "And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18). If his Church had apostatized, then the gates of hell would have prevailed against it, making Christ a liar.
In other passages, Christ teaches the same truth. In Matthew 28:20 he said, "I am with you always even until the end of the world." And in John 14:16, 18 he said, "And I will pray to the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you forever ... I will not leave you desolate."
They are, however, fulfilling Scripture. While Jesus taught that his Church would never apostatize, the Bible does teach that there will be a great apostasy, or falling away from the Church. Paul prophesies: "[Do not] be quickly shaken in mind or excited . . . to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way; for that day will not come, unless the rebellion [Greek: apostasia] comes first" (2 Thess. 2:2–3); "Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by giving heed to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons" (1 Tim. 4:1); and, "For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own liking, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths" (2 Tim. 4:3–4). By falling away from the Church, members like Jehovah Witness, Mormons, etc.
The Bible tells us in 1 John 4:1: "Do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world."
https://www.catholic.com/tract/iglesia-ni-cristo
Also, Scripture shows how Christ would not have let His Church be invisible for awhile and remain hidden and not pop up again until Charles Russell came along.
*****************************************************************
Christ speaks of a visible Church when he recommends recourse to it for settling disputes among his followers: "Refer it to the Church" (Matt. 18:17).
How could people have referred to the Church prior to the founding of JW?
He tells his followers, who make us the Church on earth, that they are "the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden. Nor do they light a lamp and then put it under a bushel basket; it is set on a lampstand, where it gives light to all in the house" (Matt. 5:14-15; see also Luke 8:16,11:33).
Hmmm . . . where was the unhidden visible Church, set on a mountain prior to Charles Russell? Where did the people go before JW came along? Where was their church?
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print ... -invisible
That’s why JW felt the need to add words to Sacred Scripture? To pick and choose which words they would translate in which way, depending on which better fit their existing theology? That’s why JW’s have changed their teachings many times over the years, but always tell their people that only the latest version of Watchtower tracts are the correct and valid one? <sigh>Our teaching is more error-free than the RCC or any other church.
The history is there for religious and non religious alike to explore. And it is interesting how the saying goes once you start looking into history – once you start reading those early Church Fathers, you find yourself at the door of the Roman Catholic Church. Just follow history and you will find your way home.You apparently don't know the history of your church.
This truly breaks my heart. I think it also shows a lack of faith. You can’t give up some earthly/physical/material pleasure for something promised to be better than all of that. It is not trusting that God will fulfill all of our needs and yes that might include something beyond what we already know. It’s like being ok with a parent who just sends money, but you never get to see or spend time with. All children have a need to see their parents. Again, that is what I focus on. All the beautiful mountains and waterfalls and delicious ripe fruit are simply shadows of what is to come. They are meant to give us a taste of heaven, but they aren’t the whole shebang. God is the whole shebang – not His planet.And we appreciate the planet that God gave us to live on, therefore we see no need to see God or Jesus face-to-face.
I’m sorry but JW teaching makes no sense. It boils down to 5 men in a room taking only Sacred Scripture (handed to them by my Church) and translating it to their liking. They without authority determined l44,000 as literal, without authority they falsely prophesied end times, without authority they declared to have determined apostasy, without authority they missed that which is literal (the True Presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist), without authority they deny the divinity of Jesus Christ. I could go on and on. So, again I think you are very mistaken. Do you consider yourself a daughter of Christ? Do you consider yourself an heir? Do you desire, like any little girl, to one day be taken in your Father’s arms? To spend time with Him? There is so much more than the JW organization can give you. We want you home. Home isn’t based on a geographical location. Home is being with our Father in heaven.
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onewithhim
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Post #632
I always listen. I do not just ignore what people say, unless they just keep saying the same things over and over without considering others' comments. I do not follow some outline of thinking that is set up by any organization. Our organization is not "set up and designed to prevent questioning of its doctrine and history." I have questioned it and studied it and looked at it from every angle. Before I got baptized I had a heck of a lot of questions. I looked at the Catholic Church the same way. I asked questions and considered every angle. The RCC failed miserably in regard to its doctrine and history, whereas I could see the truth in what JWs taught, and their history is totally benign---your opinions notwithstanding.RightReason wrote: [Replying to onewithhim]
It strikes me odd that you don’t realize I could make the same comment about you, however I recognize that it isn’t simply that you aren’t listening. It is just that the JW organization is set up and designed to prevent questioning of its doctrine and history. And I also recognize that when you speak lies about the Church like her being in bed with politicians or having fallen into apostasy you are simply regurgitating anti Catholic propaganda from Watchtower tracts and do not fully understand what the Catholic Church actually is and teaches.I wonder if you are not interested in what someone has to say, but are only trying to tear down instead of building up
If you opened your eyes of understanding you might see what the reality is concerning the church and her adulterous relationship with political leaders and her being submerged in apostasy for centuries. I am saddened that you are totally unaware of what is going on in the world. The church's dirty laundry has been being exposed for quite a few years now. Do you not pay attention?
What I know about the Catholic Church did not come from Watchtower tracts. Before I even knew one JW I was familiar with what the church was doing. I paid attention to news reports and read many books about the popes and priests and the things they have done and are still doing. For anyone not to know is a tragedy. It is right in front of us.
If you do not want to live in paradise on Earth, that is totally fine by me. No one is going to force you.
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RightReason
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Post #633
[Replying to onewithhim]
The truth is you’re right the world looks to the Catholic Church and always has. The Church has always been a beacon of light which pretty much sets the standards whether others like to admit it or not. Did you see the attendance at JPII’s funeral? Those from every religion, every walk of life, not just Catholics, showed their respects. Why? Because he was an incredible guy, witness to his faith, soldier of Christ, and holy man. People recognize goodness when they see it and they want to be a part of it. Unlike JW, who even you must admit no one really takes seriously. It is seen as a cult by most.
The Catholic Church has been the biggest defender of civil rights, of the oppressed, the down trodden, the most vulnerable among us. This often ruffles the feathers of some, but she will continue to defend the dignity of the human person from the moment of conception until the moment of death. It’s simply what she does. While JW’s are busy knocking door to door, the Catholic Church has been busy building hospitals and schools and helping the poor. Catholics are a witness to the faith in their jobs, in their homes, in their neighborhoods. The Catholic Church is the largest charitable giver in the world.
Watch this beautiful video . . .
I know you think you have, but still can’t understand how you are cool with believing Charles Taze Russell had authority from Jesus Christ. Makes no sense. Or cool with actually thinking Christ would have established a Church only to have it hidden for so long until Russell came along. The necessity and importance of having an authoritative, unified, universal, visible Church should be obvious and yet you dismiss it. The only way religions like JW, Mormons, etc can justify their religion is to suggest the Church established by Christ dismantled at some point, lay dormant, and then reappeared centuries later. Sorry, not buy’n it. I realize your church doesn’t make sense without believing that, but it is contradictory to Scripture to believe such.I have questioned it and studied it and looked at it from every angle.
Like what?The RCC failed miserably in regard to its doctrine and history
Why and how? They had no authority to do so – that should bother you.whereas I could see the truth in what JWs taught
You’re like a broken record with this. First, since my Church was the original church, she existed in a time when there was no separation of church and state so then yeah the Church would have been the ruling power. So kind of unfair and silly to accuse the Church of being entangled in politics when that was the way of life – LOL! After that, there will always be those who hate the Church and tell her to shut up when it comes to matters of politics, but the Church has a right and obligation to speak the truth to her people and sometimes those in political power do not like that. But that’s not really the Church’s problem. There will always be those who make everything about politics. They will criticize the Church for doing too little or too much. But just as Christ promised the world will hate you as she has hated me. Comes with the territory.If you opened your eyes of understanding you might see what the reality is concerning the church and her adulterous relationship with political leaders
The truth is you’re right the world looks to the Catholic Church and always has. The Church has always been a beacon of light which pretty much sets the standards whether others like to admit it or not. Did you see the attendance at JPII’s funeral? Those from every religion, every walk of life, not just Catholics, showed their respects. Why? Because he was an incredible guy, witness to his faith, soldier of Christ, and holy man. People recognize goodness when they see it and they want to be a part of it. Unlike JW, who even you must admit no one really takes seriously. It is seen as a cult by most.
The Catholic Church has been the biggest defender of civil rights, of the oppressed, the down trodden, the most vulnerable among us. This often ruffles the feathers of some, but she will continue to defend the dignity of the human person from the moment of conception until the moment of death. It’s simply what she does. While JW’s are busy knocking door to door, the Catholic Church has been busy building hospitals and schools and helping the poor. Catholics are a witness to the faith in their jobs, in their homes, in their neighborhoods. The Catholic Church is the largest charitable giver in the world.
Watch this beautiful video . . .
Could it be that those who left Christ’s Church and followed people like Luther or Calvin or Joseph Smith or Charles Taze Russell could be those submerged in apostasy? They didn’t trust Christ’s promise that He would remain with His Church. They felt the need to start their own organizations. They all changed, deleted, or added to Sacred Scripture to invent their new theology. And once they left they could never be sure they were getting it right. They were left alone thinking all they need is the Bible – something the Bible doesn’t even say. The Bible declares the Church as the pillar and foundation of truth. The Bible tells us to listen to the Church.and her being submerged in apostasy for centuries
There isn’t a religion in the world that doesn’t have sinners among its ranks. JW’s included. Some of Jesus’ closest followers screwed up big time, but that doesn’t mean they weren’t chosen by God to spread His message. I am saddened you are unaware of that fact.I am saddened that you are totally unaware of what is going on in the world. The church's dirty laundry has been being exposed for quite a few years now. Do you not pay attention?
Were you familiar with Peter’s denial of Christ? Were you familiar with all those sinners and tax collectors who put their faith in God and dined with our Lord?Before I even knew one JW I was familiar with what the church was doing.
Thanks be to God. I want the will of my Father. I want what He has in store for me and as long as I get to see Him face to face I don’t really care where I reside as long as its with Him.If you do not want to live in paradise on Earth, that is totally fine by me. No one is going to force you.
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tam
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Post #634
May you both have peace!
So what?
I'm not trying to be glib or insulting to either one of you, truly. But why would that mean anything?
Because this - our teaching is more error free than the RCC or any other church - this is not saying much.
It is the same as someone saying,
"We should listen to my mom because she lies less than your mom."
What? No! They're BOTH liars. Why would you listen to either one of them?
**
Is Christ not the One we have been given to listen to? Is Christ not the One we have been told to follow? Is Christ not the TRUTH?
He doesn't just teach 'less errors'. He teaches NO errors. HE is the one who will lead us into ALL truth.
HE builds His church upon Himself. He is the rock; He is the cornerstone, He is the TRUTH. His church is made up of the members of His Body; His Bride... and she listens to Him.
"Come! Follow ME!"
May anyone who wishes be given ears to hear.
To all who seek and all who thirst, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of LIFE!"
(Which water is holy spirit, poured out by Christ to whomever He chooses, as He has been given without end by His Father)
Peace to you and to your households,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Assuming for a moment - for the sake of argument - that the above quote is true:Our teaching is more error-free than the RCC or any other church.
So what?
I'm not trying to be glib or insulting to either one of you, truly. But why would that mean anything?
Because this - our teaching is more error free than the RCC or any other church - this is not saying much.
It is the same as someone saying,
"We should listen to my mom because she lies less than your mom."
What? No! They're BOTH liars. Why would you listen to either one of them?
**
Is Christ not the One we have been given to listen to? Is Christ not the One we have been told to follow? Is Christ not the TRUTH?
He doesn't just teach 'less errors'. He teaches NO errors. HE is the one who will lead us into ALL truth.
HE builds His church upon Himself. He is the rock; He is the cornerstone, He is the TRUTH. His church is made up of the members of His Body; His Bride... and she listens to Him.
"Come! Follow ME!"
May anyone who wishes be given ears to hear.
To all who seek and all who thirst, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of LIFE!"
(Which water is holy spirit, poured out by Christ to whomever He chooses, as He has been given without end by His Father)
Peace to you and to your households,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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tam
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Post #635
May you have peace!
Speaking of the RCC, it was said:
I imagine the RCC was not a beacon of light to the children who have been abused (physically, emotionally, sexually, spiritually) in and by her, and whose abuse still affects them into adulthood, including turning them away from faith in Christ and God altogether. Insult to injury also occurred when their outcry was denied until it became so great that it could not be denied anymore. And this is just what we know about in modern times.
I imagine the RCC was not a beacon of light to the children and families of First Nations in Canada, with children forced into the Catholic run residential school system (where abuse of all the sorts above occurred, and which has been called a cultural genocide).
Or to the women sent to the laundries in Ireland.
Or to those who were victims of the Inquisition, who were tortured, stolen from, imprisoned, murdered.
Or to those Jews and Muslims in Jerusalem who were slaughtered (during the crusades.)
Or to anyone who was forced to convert.
I cannot imagine the RCC was (or is) a beacon of light to any of these people.
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Speaking of the RCC, it was said:
The Church has always been a beacon of light
I imagine the RCC was not a beacon of light to the children who have been abused (physically, emotionally, sexually, spiritually) in and by her, and whose abuse still affects them into adulthood, including turning them away from faith in Christ and God altogether. Insult to injury also occurred when their outcry was denied until it became so great that it could not be denied anymore. And this is just what we know about in modern times.
I imagine the RCC was not a beacon of light to the children and families of First Nations in Canada, with children forced into the Catholic run residential school system (where abuse of all the sorts above occurred, and which has been called a cultural genocide).
Or to the women sent to the laundries in Ireland.
Or to those who were victims of the Inquisition, who were tortured, stolen from, imprisoned, murdered.
Or to those Jews and Muslims in Jerusalem who were slaughtered (during the crusades.)
Or to anyone who was forced to convert.
I cannot imagine the RCC was (or is) a beacon of light to any of these people.
Aren't some of the above people the oppressed, the down trodden, the most vulnerable among us?The Catholic Church has been the biggest defender of civil rights, of the oppressed, the down trodden, the most vulnerable among us.
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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JehovahsWitness
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Post #636
[Replying to post 635 by tam]
I don't think this thread was dedicated to Catholic (or Jehovath's Witness) bashing but to discuss the doctrine of Paradise. If I wanted to critic the Catholics or the JWs (I'm not suggesting you have done so in your post, but it has been done in this thread) I would set up a thread question to do so, so as not to hijack the OP. Personal opinion.
That sad, returning to the topic at hand, I think that humans can live forever and be happy on the earth.
Artists impression
I don't think this thread was dedicated to Catholic (or Jehovath's Witness) bashing but to discuss the doctrine of Paradise. If I wanted to critic the Catholics or the JWs (I'm not suggesting you have done so in your post, but it has been done in this thread) I would set up a thread question to do so, so as not to hijack the OP. Personal opinion.
That sad, returning to the topic at hand, I think that humans can live forever and be happy on the earth.
Artists impression
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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tam
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Post #637
JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 635 by tam]
That said, returning to the topic at hand, I think that humans can live forever and be happy on the earth.
I agree that we could be...
But not if it meant that we would never hear the voice of our Lord, or be near Him, or see Him, meet Him, speak with Him. Some of us long to be with Him wherever He is.
The destination would not matter to me in the least - as long as He was there with me.
Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
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JehovahsWitness
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Post #638
Didn't Jesus and John hear the voice of our Lord when he was baptized. Didn't Adam converse with God himself in the garden of Eden having a detailed conversation with Him?tam wrote:JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 635 by tam]
That said, returning to the topic at hand, I think that humans can live forever and be happy on the earth.
I agree that we could be...
But not if it meant that we would never hear the voice of our Lord ... speak with Him.
Is there any reason to believe that humans will never hear the voice of our Lord in paradise if it were on earth?
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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RightReason
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Post #639
[Replying to tam]
Hi Tam, I want to preface my response to your post that I am typing this prior to my way to mass (THE most important thing I do) and am crunched for time. If we were having this discussion say at a BBQ, I would exchange more pleasantries. I would probably acknowledge what you, Onewithin, and I have in common – our love for God. But one of the nice things about these internet exchanges is that we can get right to the point. So please don’t take my quick and perhaps blunt responses personally – it is simply business. As someone passionate about these topics, I’m hoping you can understand.
Also, when one speaks about a church being error free, it refers to being truthful in her teachings regarding matters of the faith and her teachings regarding morals. Since churches are made up of human beings all churches could be shown to be consisting of liars. Of course there is also a divine element to Christ’s established Church, and it is that divine element in what we place our trust. If you trust Jesus, you need to trust His Church because He is the one who said, “He who hears you, hears me. . . “
“He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.� -Luke 10:16
Hi Tam, I want to preface my response to your post that I am typing this prior to my way to mass (THE most important thing I do) and am crunched for time. If we were having this discussion say at a BBQ, I would exchange more pleasantries. I would probably acknowledge what you, Onewithin, and I have in common – our love for God. But one of the nice things about these internet exchanges is that we can get right to the point. So please don’t take my quick and perhaps blunt responses personally – it is simply business. As someone passionate about these topics, I’m hoping you can understand.
I think your analogy is a really bad analogy. It would make more sense to say we should listen to our mothers because they have been put in charge of us, given the authority and power, promised to take care of us and guide us in all truth. Are our mothers perfect? Nope. They are human, but I trust that my mom has my best interest at heart and I owe her love and respect. THAT is how we look at the Church as wellWhat? No! They're BOTH liars. Why would you listen to either one of them?
Also, when one speaks about a church being error free, it refers to being truthful in her teachings regarding matters of the faith and her teachings regarding morals. Since churches are made up of human beings all churches could be shown to be consisting of liars. Of course there is also a divine element to Christ’s established Church, and it is that divine element in what we place our trust. If you trust Jesus, you need to trust His Church because He is the one who said, “He who hears you, hears me. . . “
But what does Christ say? If you trust Jesus, you need to trust His Church because He is the one who said, “He who hears you, hears me. . . “ “Thou art Peter and upon this rock I build my church� That’s why! Disrespecting Christ’s Church is disrespecting Christ – He told us so.Is Christ not the One we have been given to listen to? Is Christ not the One we have been told to follow? Is Christ not the TRUTH?
Not what He says. He told us to listen to the church and that He would guide the church in all truth. Did you miss that in your Scripture?He doesn't just teach 'less errors'. He teaches NO errors. HE is the one who will lead us into ALL truth.
This is actually an error in understanding and probably a topic for another thread, but the correct interpretation and only conclusion to make from Sacred Scripture is that He actually built His Church giving Peter the power as the first Pope. He gave His Church the power to forgive sins. That comes straight from the mouth of Jesus. Scripture is very clear that Christ intended a visible, earthly, literal church. He intended One, Holy, Catholic (or universal) and Apostolic Church. Scripture tells us the Church (not Scripture) is the pillar and foundation of Truth. God recognizes that we need an earthly shepherd and that we must be united in our faith. Nothing else makes sense. I’m sorry but I often have little patience for the “All I need is me and Jesus� camp. It is simply unscriptural!HE builds His church upon Himself. He is the rock; He is the cornerstone, He is the TRUTH. His church is made up of the members of His Body; His Bride... and she listens to Him.
"Come! Follow ME!"
Then heed His words and listen to the Church. “Come follow me� is encompassed in these words . . .May anyone who wishes be given ears to hear.
“He who hears you hears Me, he who rejects you rejects Me, and he who rejects Me rejects Him who sent Me.� -Luke 10:16
Nor do I, nor is sexual abuse a teaching of the Catholic Church. We all know that families and school teachers can be a beautiful light to the world and we can say that even though we also know that families and teachers can be guilty of sexual abuse. A contradiction? Hardly.I imagine the RCC was not a beacon of light to the children who have been abused (physically, emotionally, sexually, spiritually) in and by her
Good thing you aren’t God. He is kind and merciful and full of forgiveness and often chooses the least likely among us to be His messengers.I cannot imagine the RCC was (or is) a beacon of light to any of these people.
Peace to you as wellPeace to you and to your households
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RightReason
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Post #640
[Replying to post 638 by JehovahsWitness]
There is a great deal of Scriptural evidence . . .
“For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; but then shall I know, even as also I am known� -1 Corinthians 13:12
Matthew 5:8 says, "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God." The Greek verb translated "see" (horao) is in a tense that denotes a future, continuous reality. In heaven we will continually be seeing God. Kings generally seclude themselves from direct contact with their people. It is a rare privilege to have an audience with a king. But believers in heaven will forever have perfect, unbroken fellowship with the King of Kings!
This has always been the deepest longing of the redeemed soul. The psalmist said, "As the deer pants for the water brooks, so pants my soul for You, O God. My soul thirsts for God, for the living God. When shall I come and appear before God?" (Ps. 42:1-2). And Philip, speaking for all the disciples, said to Christ, "Show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us" (John 14:8).
Revelation 22:3-4 seals the promise: "The throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve him. They shall see his face" (emphasis added).
David wrote, "As for me, I will see Your face in righteousness; I shall be satisfied when I awake in Your likeness" (Ps. 17:15). What really satisfies you? New clothes? A new job? Promotion? A new house or car? A great meal? A fun time? A vacation? Don't set your heart on such paltry earthly pleasures. The redeemed will be able to see God.
David knew every station in life, from that of a lowly shepherd to the honor of being a great warrior to the status of being king. He tasted every earthly pleasure. And he knew ultimate satisfaction would come only when he could see the face of God and be like Him in holiness.
As Christians, our highest satisfaction will come when we see our God and His Son, Jesus Christ, and when we stand before Them in perfect uprightness. Heaven will provide us with that privilege-an undiminished, unwearied sight of His infinite glory and beauty, bringing us infinite and eternal delight. We can begin to understand why Peter, after seeing only a faint glimpse of that glory, wanted to make a camp on the Mount of Transfiguration and stay there permanently! (Matt. 17:4).
In a way, the same thing is true of us all. Our sight here on earth is virtually like blindness compared to the clearer vision we will have in heaven (1 Cor. 13:12). We ought to be eagerly looking for that day when our vision will be enlightened by the glory of His presence. I sincerely hope that's your deepest desire.
https://www.gty.org/library/questions/Q ... -gods-face
I think humans can focus on God and place their trust in Him and whatever God has in store for them and not focus on some material prize. And I don’t think any human being can be truly and completely happy and full of peace a part from God. I don’t care where God wants me to be as long as I can be with Him.I think that humans can live forever and be happy on the earth.
Bingo! Beautiful Tam!But not if it meant that we would never hear the voice of our Lord, or be near Him, or see Him, meet Him, speak with Him. Some of us long to be with Him wherever He is.
The destination would not matter to me in the least - as long as He was there with me.
Is there any reason to believe that God’s desire is not for us to see Him face to face and be with Him, not merely be in His petting zoo and kept at a distance?
Didn't Jesus and John hear the voice of our Lord when he was baptized. Didn't Adam converse with God himself in the garden of Eden having a detailed conversation with Him?
Is there any reason to believe that humans will never hear the voice of our Lord in paradise if it were on earth?
There is a great deal of Scriptural evidence . . .
“For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; but then shall I know, even as also I am known� -1 Corinthians 13:12
Matthew 5:8 says, "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God." The Greek verb translated "see" (horao) is in a tense that denotes a future, continuous reality. In heaven we will continually be seeing God. Kings generally seclude themselves from direct contact with their people. It is a rare privilege to have an audience with a king. But believers in heaven will forever have perfect, unbroken fellowship with the King of Kings!
This has always been the deepest longing of the redeemed soul. The psalmist said, "As the deer pants for the water brooks, so pants my soul for You, O God. My soul thirsts for God, for the living God. When shall I come and appear before God?" (Ps. 42:1-2). And Philip, speaking for all the disciples, said to Christ, "Show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us" (John 14:8).
Revelation 22:3-4 seals the promise: "The throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve him. They shall see his face" (emphasis added).
David wrote, "As for me, I will see Your face in righteousness; I shall be satisfied when I awake in Your likeness" (Ps. 17:15). What really satisfies you? New clothes? A new job? Promotion? A new house or car? A great meal? A fun time? A vacation? Don't set your heart on such paltry earthly pleasures. The redeemed will be able to see God.
David knew every station in life, from that of a lowly shepherd to the honor of being a great warrior to the status of being king. He tasted every earthly pleasure. And he knew ultimate satisfaction would come only when he could see the face of God and be like Him in holiness.
As Christians, our highest satisfaction will come when we see our God and His Son, Jesus Christ, and when we stand before Them in perfect uprightness. Heaven will provide us with that privilege-an undiminished, unwearied sight of His infinite glory and beauty, bringing us infinite and eternal delight. We can begin to understand why Peter, after seeing only a faint glimpse of that glory, wanted to make a camp on the Mount of Transfiguration and stay there permanently! (Matt. 17:4).
In a way, the same thing is true of us all. Our sight here on earth is virtually like blindness compared to the clearer vision we will have in heaven (1 Cor. 13:12). We ought to be eagerly looking for that day when our vision will be enlightened by the glory of His presence. I sincerely hope that's your deepest desire.
https://www.gty.org/library/questions/Q ... -gods-face
