A similar thread was created with great success (i.e., good discussion). I am simply creating a narrower version, keeping it to Christ.
There have been several theories of atonement in regards Christ's sacrifice: Ransom, Moral Exemplar, Satisfaction, Recapitulation, etc.
Qs for D:
Which theory has the best biblical support?
Which theory has the least biblical support?
which theory makes the most sense?
which theory makes the least sense?
Christ and Theories of Atonement
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Re: Christ and Theories of Atonement
Post #2None of them. I have in the past opened up several threads regarding the lack of logic in Jesus' sacrifice and I have never gotten a logical explanation for it.liamconnor wrote: which theory makes the most sense?
Ransom. Yet despite being the least sensible, it's usually the most commonly used.liamconnor wrote: which theory makes the least sense?
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Re: Christ and Theories of Atonement
Post #3[Replying to post 1 by liamconnor]
I don't know what the theory of Satisfaction or, Recapitulation, is so I cannot comment on that; I supposes that moral excellence means that Jesus ast perfect example but I don't know what that means in terms of atonement.
The bible does say that Christ gave his life as a ransom for mankind, so this idea has biblical support.
RELATED POSTS
See below.
I don't know what the theory of Satisfaction or, Recapitulation, is so I cannot comment on that; I supposes that moral excellence means that Jesus ast perfect example but I don't know what that means in terms of atonement.
The bible does say that Christ gave his life as a ransom for mankind, so this idea has biblical support.
MATTHEW 26:28
for this is my blood, which confirms the covenant between God and his people. It is poured out as a sacrifice to forgive the sins of many. NLT
MARK 14:24
He said to them, "This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.
LUKE 22:20
In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you. NIV
1 JOHN 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
1 PETER 1:18-19
For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect.
REVELATION 7:14
And I said to him, “My Lord, you know.� And he said to me, “These are those who came from great suffering and they have purified their garments and whitened them in the blood of The Lamb.� - Aramaic Bible in Plain English
*While neither James and Jude directly refer to the blood sacrifice of Jesus, both make reference to Jesus' key position in the lives of Christians
RELATED POSTS
See below.
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Christ and Theories of Atonement
Post #4INDEX: The Ransom
RELATED POSTS
WHY DID JESUS DIE?
https://www.jw.org/en/library/videos/#e ... 53_1_VIDEO
Is there biblical support for the idea of Christ providing a RANSOM for mankind?
viewtopic.php?p=961608#p961608
REASONS FOR
VALUE
METHOD
ORIGINAL SIN
RELATED POSTS
WHY DID JESUS DIE?
https://www.jw.org/en/library/videos/#e ... 53_1_VIDEO
Is there biblical support for the idea of Christ providing a RANSOM for mankind?
viewtopic.php?p=961608#p961608
REASONS FOR
- Why was there a need for a ransom?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 90#p852190
Why does the bible refer to Jesus as "The last Adam"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 50#p959850
How can we say that Jesus' torturous death was the equavalent of Adam's act of disobedience?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 40#p852240
Does the ransom sacrifice of Jesus contradict the principle of believers forgiving others in personal relationships?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 07#p827307
When will the full benefits of the ransom go into action
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 93#p852193
VALUE
Why couldn't any human ransom Mankind?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 45#p959845
Does Almighty GOD have to die for mankind since the original sin was against God?
viewtopic.php?p=979715#p979715
Why was the ransom set at the life of a perfect man?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 72#p909872
How could the death of one man cover for the sins of so many?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 59#p959859
Is there scriptural support for the idea that Jesus DEATH provided the basis for salvation?
viewtopic.php?p=1038466#p1038466
Why would animal sacrifice not suffice?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 05#p848905
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 45#p959845
Does Almighty GOD have to die for mankind since the original sin was against God?
viewtopic.php?p=979715#p979715
Why was the ransom set at the life of a perfect man?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 72#p909872
How could the death of one man cover for the sins of so many?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 59#p959859
Is there scriptural support for the idea that Jesus DEATH provided the basis for salvation?
viewtopic.php?p=1038466#p1038466
Why would animal sacrifice not suffice?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 05#p848905
METHOD
- Who was the ransom paid to?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 03#p852203
Would Jesus need to "stay dead" for the Ransom to be valid?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 80#p875280
Would the ransom have been paid if Jesus had died of old age or disease ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 29#p959829
Would the ransom have been paid if Jesus had taken his own life?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 47#p909847
Would the ransom have been paid if Jesus had died in an accident?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 28#p852228
ORIGINAL SIN
- Why did God not just ignore the original sin?[*]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 33#p848933
Was Adams sin a minor dietry infaction?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 92#p848992
Are Adam's children suffering for HIS sins ("sins of the father")?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 80#p381280
WHO determined Adam's children should inherit sin (and death)?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 01#p960001
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Tue Jul 13, 2021 4:52 am, edited 18 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
Re: Christ and Theories of Atonement
Post #5I offered several rebuttals. You did not respond.JehovahsWitness wrote: INDEX: The Ransom
Why was there a need for a ransom?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 214#852214
I offered several rebuttals. You did not respond.JehovahsWitness wrote: Why did God not just ignore the original sin?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 933#848933
I offered several rebuttals. You did not respond.JehovahsWitness wrote: Why did Jesus have to die? [with video]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 775#846775
I offered several rebuttals. You did not respond.JehovahsWitness wrote: Would Jesus need to "stay dead" for the Ransom to be valid?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 280#875280
I offered several rebuttals. You did not respond.JehovahsWitness wrote: Who was the ransom paid to?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 203#852203
So with the exception of the animal sacrifice discussion, I participated in every one of these debates and in literally every single instance you would simply ignore the rebuttals I offer. Why is that?
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Re: Christ and Theories of Atonement
Post #6[Replying to post 3 by JehovahsWitness]
Ransom dates to the early post-biblical church and refers to an exchange between God and Satan.
Satisfaction is typically what most mean by ransom: that God was ticked off; to appease him, someone not-guilty had to pay the price.
Recapitulation sees Christ as a new Adam who went through the process of temptation as Adam did but succeeded.
I personally reject the first and the second. Though Legal Satisfaction has biblical support, I take those instances of it to be metaphors drawn from Law. I find that far more often then not, New Creation in Christ is the center of Pauline theology; that by belief in Christ we enter into his death, thereby killing the old self, as well his resurrection, whereby we enter into a new creation.
Ransom dates to the early post-biblical church and refers to an exchange between God and Satan.
Satisfaction is typically what most mean by ransom: that God was ticked off; to appease him, someone not-guilty had to pay the price.
Recapitulation sees Christ as a new Adam who went through the process of temptation as Adam did but succeeded.
I personally reject the first and the second. Though Legal Satisfaction has biblical support, I take those instances of it to be metaphors drawn from Law. I find that far more often then not, New Creation in Christ is the center of Pauline theology; that by belief in Christ we enter into his death, thereby killing the old self, as well his resurrection, whereby we enter into a new creation.
Re: Christ and Theories of Atonement
Post #7The alternative question = Which theory is true?liamconnor wrote: Christ and Theories of Atonement
... keeping it to Christ.
There have been several theories of atonement in regards Christ's sacrifice: Ransom, Moral Exemplar, Satisfaction, Recapitulation, etc.
My understanding is that the atonement was simply and only between the Father and the Son.
The Christ was making atonement to His Father.
Thereafter humanity simply hitches along with Jesus who opened the way for humanity to be saved = the salvation of all.
The Father God is a creature of rules and principles which can not be violated, and as such humanity was lost and doomed, so Jesus Himself being human without sin and His sacrificial death meant that the rules of the Father could not rightly be applied to Jesus and thereby is the atonement, because Jesus being righteous made so that then humanity could not remain lost or doomed without righteous Jesus being included as lost and doomed which would have been unjust, and thereby the sentence of death to humanity became null and void which thereby satisfies the commandments for the Father who is the God of justice.
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Post #8
First, let me point out that I view Yeshua's sacrifice as more than what the RCC refers to as "the Passion". I believe His entire earthly existence was the sacrifice. I believe it was exemplary from beginning to end. Regarding the concept of atonement, HaTorah speaks of the Temple sacrifices and specifically the annual Yom Kippur sacrifice as the atonement. Therefore, I think the best way to understand the concept is to examine that sacrifice ritual. Then, and only then, can one properly attempt to apply the concept to Yeshua's sacrifice.
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Re: Christ and Theories of Atonement
Post #9INDEX: The Ransom
RELATED POSTS
WHY DID JESUS DIE?
https://www.jw.org/en/library/videos/#e ... 53_1_VIDEO
Is there biblical support for the idea of Christ providing a RANSOM for mankind?
viewtopic.php?p=961608#p961608
REASONS FOR
VALUE
METHOD
ORIGINAL SIN
RELATED POSTS
WHY DID JESUS DIE?
https://www.jw.org/en/library/videos/#e ... 53_1_VIDEO
Is there biblical support for the idea of Christ providing a RANSOM for mankind?
viewtopic.php?p=961608#p961608
REASONS FOR
- Why was there a need for a ransom?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 90#p852190
Why does the bible refer to Jesus as "The last Adam"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 50#p959850
How can we say that Jesus' torturous death was the equavalent of Adam's act of disobedience?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 40#p852240
Does the ransom sacrifice of Jesus contradict the principle of believers forgiving others in personal relationships?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 07#p827307
When will the full benefits of the ransom go into action
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 93#p852193
VALUE
Why couldn't any human ransom Mankind?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 45#p959845
Does Almighty GOD have to die for mankind since the original sin was against God?
viewtopic.php?p=979715#p979715
Why was the ransom set at the life of a perfect man?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 72#p909872
How could the death of one man cover for the sins of so many?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 59#p959859
Is there scriptural support for the idea that Jesus DEATH provided the basis for salvation?
viewtopic.php?p=1038466#p1038466
Why would animal sacrifice not suffice?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 05#p848905
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 45#p959845
Does Almighty GOD have to die for mankind since the original sin was against God?
viewtopic.php?p=979715#p979715
Why was the ransom set at the life of a perfect man?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 72#p909872
How could the death of one man cover for the sins of so many?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 59#p959859
Is there scriptural support for the idea that Jesus DEATH provided the basis for salvation?
viewtopic.php?p=1038466#p1038466
Why would animal sacrifice not suffice?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 05#p848905
METHOD
- HOW did Jesus pay for our sins?
viewtopic.php?p=1110872#p1110872
Who was the ransom paid to?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 03#p852203
Would Jesus need to "stay dead" for the Ransom to be valid?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 80#p875280
Would the ransom have been paid if Jesus had died of old age or disease ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 29#p959829
Would the ransom have been paid if Jesus had taken his own life?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 47#p909847
Would the ransom have been paid if Jesus had died in an accident?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 28#p852228
ORIGINAL SIN
- Why did God not just ignore the original sin?[*]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 33#p848933
Was Adams sin a minor dietry infaction?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 92#p848992
Are Adam's children suffering for HIS sins ("sins of the father")?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 80#p381280
WHO determined Adam's children should inherit sin (and death)?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 01#p960001
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8