Why do some modern intelligent minds accept Yahweh?

[marco]

The Old Testament God is the stuff of nightmares, creating and destroying, commanding and punishing, crazy with jealousy and obsessive about being "loved."

It seems obvious that Yahweh is born of primitive imagining. Yet many intelligent people do accept he is a real being. Why? Some like G.K. Chesterton and C.S. Lewis have changed sides and embraced Christianity with both hands, presumably admiring the unlovable OT God. What makes people do this?

Love seems out of the question, so is it fear?

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 10 by Divine Insight]

liamconnor wrote:

Lewis was raised in a religious family that attended the Church of Ireland. He became an atheist at age 15, though he later described his young self as being paradoxically "angry with God for not existing".


There you go.

There I go what? ToN said Lewis abandoned Christianity because of WWI. I refuted that.

Lewis own confession that he was never truly an atheist. You can't be angry with a God that doesn't exist. He could be angry that a God does not exist. But not angry "with" a nonexistent God for not existing.

And yet, how much this sounds like so many people here.

So Lewis gives himself away as having never been an actual atheist.

Psychology is a difficult branch of science to grasp, and so the confusion you have here is understandable. Lewis is reflecting; that is, interpreting a past event. But that does not mean that had you asked him at the time whether he believed in God, he would have said "yes, but I am really angry." He no doubt believed at the time that there was no God.

No one here is saying that atheism is a consistent system, or psychologically placid. The very fact that so many atheists are on this site is rather telling--what are they all so angry about? Why are they not out golfing or something? Why do they constantly pour scorn on the Christian God? My guess is, they don't believe in the Hindu gods; but are they equally hostile to such? Or the Islamic god? It seems not. It seems they have a personal issue with something they claim does not exist. Very strange.

But the important point for the OP is that Lewis' conversion was not emotional. It was highly intellectual. One can disagree with his arguments, but they were arguments none the less.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to post 8 by Tired of the Nonsense]

C.S. Lewis for example had a strong Christian upbringing as a child, but was appalled by the carnage of the first world war and declared himself an atheist as a result.

Please give evidence from C.S. Lewis himself about the time of, and reason for, his abandonment of the faith.

I have all his books on my shelf, including three volumes of letters. I have never come across any indication that it was the war which compelled him to abandon belief.

Here is an excerpt from Wiki

Return to Christianity
Lewis was raised in a religious family that attended the Church of Ireland. He became an atheist at age 15, though he later described his young self as being paradoxically "angry with God for not existing".[34] His early separation from Christianity began when he started to view his religion as a chore and a duty; around this time, he also gained an interest in the occult, as his studies expanded to include such topics.[35] Lewis quoted Lucretius (De rerum natura, 5.198–9) as having one of the strongest arguments for atheism:[36]

Nequaquam nobis divinitus esse paratam
Naturam rerum; tanta stat praedita culpa

Had God designed the world, it would not be
A world so frail and faulty as we see.[a]

Why? Because some people desire comfort and reassurance in their lives.

Perhaps, but I advise you not to make claims about Lewis unless you have read him. I have. 'Comfort' had nothing to do with his conversion. It was on intellectual grounds. 'Comfort' was something that evaded him almost his entire life. He believed God was good, but was often terrified about what that goodness entailed.

Wikipedia
C. S. Lewis
Childhood
Within months of entering Oxford, the British Army shipped him to France to fight in the First World War. His experience of the horror of war confirmed his atheism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._S._Lewis

Lewis, who had been raised to be staunchly Christian, finished WW 1 as a firm nonbeliever. The world, he decided, was too cruel for the existence of a just loving God.

I wasn't until 1929 that Lewis reconciled with the concept of God. In 1931 he reconfirmed his old Christian faith.

[iosua]

Lewis was raised in a religious family that attended the Church of Ireland. He became an atheist at age 15, though he later described his young self as being paradoxically "angry with God for not existing".

There you go. Lewis own confession that he was never truly an atheist. You can't be angry with a God that doesn't exist. He could be angry that a God does not exist. But not angry "with" a nonexistent God for not existing.

So Lewis gives himself away as having never been an actual atheist. He always believed that a God existed and apparently he was angry with God for not creating a world that Lewis would be happy about. Not angry with God for not existing.

So Lewis was never anything other than a disgruntled theist, by his own confession.

That's not a fair reading or understanding of Lewis's atheism. It says he *later* described himself as being angry at God for not existing. Presumably this happened after his conversion. As a former atheist turned Christian, I often use similar language to describe my own atheism - rebellion against God even though I did not believe in Him at the time. It's actually a belief that is at the heart of Christianity:

"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened." - Romans 1:18-21

[iosua]

Wikipedia
C. S. Lewis
Childhood
Within months of entering Oxford, the British Army shipped him to France to fight in the First World War. His experience of the horror of war confirmed his atheism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._S._Lewis

Lewis, who had been raised to be staunchly Christian, finished WW 1 as a firm nonbeliever. The world, he decided, was too cruel for the existence of a just loving God.

I wasn't until 1929 that Lewis reconciled with the concept of God. In 1931 he reconfirmed his old Christian faith.

This states that WW1 confirmed his atheism, not that it made him an atheist.

[liamconnor]

[Replying to post 8 by Tired of the Nonsense]

C.S. Lewis for example had a strong Christian upbringing as a child, but was appalled by the carnage of the first world war and declared himself an atheist as a result.

Please give evidence from C.S. Lewis himself about the time of, and reason for, his abandonment of the faith.

I have all his books on my shelf, including three volumes of letters. I have never come across any indication that it was the war which compelled him to abandon belief.

Here is an excerpt from Wiki

Return to Christianity
Lewis was raised in a religious family that attended the Church of Ireland. He became an atheist at age 15, though he later described his young self as being paradoxically "angry with God for not existing".[34] His early separation from Christianity began when he started to view his religion as a chore and a duty; around this time, he also gained an interest in the occult, as his studies expanded to include such topics.[35] Lewis quoted Lucretius (De rerum natura, 5.198–9) as having one of the strongest arguments for atheism:[36]

Nequaquam nobis divinitus esse paratam
Naturam rerum; tanta stat praedita culpa

Had God designed the world, it would not be
A world so frail and faulty as we see.[a]

Why? Because some people desire comfort and reassurance in their lives.

Perhaps, but I advise you not to make claims about Lewis unless you have read him. I have. 'Comfort' had nothing to do with his conversion. It was on intellectual grounds. 'Comfort' was something that evaded him almost his entire life. He believed God was good, but was often terrified about what that goodness entailed.

Wikipedia
C. S. Lewis
Childhood
Within months of entering Oxford, the British Army shipped him to France to fight in the First World War. His experience of the horror of war confirmed his atheism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C._S._Lewis

Lewis, who had been raised to be staunchly Christian, finished WW 1 as a firm nonbeliever. The world, he decided, was too cruel for the existence of a just loving God.

I wasn't until 1929 that Lewis reconciled with the concept of God. In 1931 he reconfirmed his old Christian faith.

Read Surprised by Joy, Lewis' own words on the matter; or better, his early letters (vol. 1). Lewis did not go into WWI a confessing Christian.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to post 15 by liamconnor]

Read Surprised by Joy, Lewis' own words on the matter; or better, his early letters (vol. 1). Lewis did not go into WWI a confessing Christian.

Lewis did not come out of the war a confessing Christian either. He considered Jesus' message of peace and pacifism impractical, arguing that no one should be required to stand passively by while violence is being done to others. Years later Lewis returned to the belief that he had been indoctrinated into as a child. And THAT was my original point. It's very difficult to overcome this early indoctrination, whether it be Christian, Hindu, Muslim or Buddhist. People overwhelmingly tend to believe and remain in whatever religion they were indoctrinated into as a child. And that is why even intelligent people subscribe to a belief in Yahweh, or Allah, or Krishna, or whatever superstitious nonsense they were first exposed to.

And others see the nonsense for what it always has been, and walk away for purely intellectual reasons.

[RightReason]

[Replying to marco]

quote] Love seems out of the question, so is it fear?[/quote]

You mean love seems out of the question to you. I think the majority of Christians don’t share your views seeing God as a destructive, crazy nightmare. I think Chesterton, Lewis, me, and many others do see God as all knowing, all just, and all merciful and see Him this way out of love not fear.


Here is a quote from you in a different thread:

It was no benevolent God who flooded the planet.

How do you know that? If a pack of wolves were devouring a flock of sheep, would you say “no benevolent shepherd would get rid of the wolves?�

And than regarding these comments of yours:

It would be sad if the benevolent creator inserted in primitives the idea of his existence so that they worshipped sun and feared thunder. In those parts of the world where people are too preoccupied trying to find water to spend time thinking of what God might be doing there is no evidence of benevolence. If we see benevolence we are identifying good luck.

I think it odd to think or believe prayer or worship takes away time that could be in your opinion better spent. In fact, I believe there might be research that shows the opposite. And I have never really met anyone, even though I have heard the accusation often, that there is some Christian who just sits around praying for something, but won’t lift a finger themselves to make something happen. It’s usually the opposite. Those who have faith in God are willing and ready to work hard and it is likely their prayer life and hope that helps them realize they are expected to use their talents and persevere.

History is a record of moves up a stairway of progress. While the few have laboured to invent, the many have prayed, pointlessly. Belief in gods is the alternative to inventing the telephone or the rocket ship. God is one of man's lesser inventions. Just like Hamlet or Sydney Carton or Holden Caulfield or Prince Myshkin!

Why does it have to be one or the other? Some of the most “successful� scientific discoveries have come via inspired and spiritual scientists who claim their faith as their motivation, so not sure one can say belief in God is an alternative to hard work and progress. What an odd statement.

[Volbrigade]

The Old Testament God is the stuff of nightmares, creating and destroying, commanding and punishing, crazy with jealousy and obsessive about being "loved."

It seems obvious that Yahweh is born of primitive imagining. Yet many intelligent people do accept he is a real being. Why? Some like G.K. Chesterton and C.S. Lewis have changed sides and embraced Christianity with both hands, presumably admiring the unlovable OT God. What makes people do this?

Love seems out of the question, so is it fear?

Maturity, reflection, reason, reality, meaning, purpose, truth.

These are some of the factors that bring people to faith in the the Living Triune God.

And yes -- the God who spoke our space-time environment into existence from the resources of His eternal and infinite power and glory; for whom the creation of pulsars, quasars, black holes, and galactic clusters are child's play; who knows the precise number of atoms in the cosmos, and holds them together;

He is a fearsome Being. We SHOULD fear Him.

But should we love Him? Does He love us?

That's a tough question. For certain, there are incidences in the OT that, even for believers, are "wtf?" (pardon -- can I get away with that?) moments.

Here is the answer to all questions regarding the "goodness" of God.

First -- if He does exist, He is either a monster, or He is good. If He is only part "monster" then He's a monster. And if He's only part good, then He's no good (hello, Allah).

"Good" is whatever He is. What He calls "good", IS good.

We cannot be "more good" than our Creator. It is not God who is on trial; if anyone is, we are.

So -- why evil?

God created beings with the agency of free will. Why did He do that? I like Lewis' explanation: perhaps He wanted "many sons", and the only possible way to achieve that was to create matter, and spiritualize it.

Free will entails the possibility of its misuse.

That misuse occurred with both categories of creatures He imparted free will to:

both those purely spiritual (angels); and those for who He created time and space (humans).

The result of that misuse of free will has been devastating. An army of rebellious spiritual beings, of incalculable power; and the corruption of that space-time environment, (perhaps) in a dimensional sense; and the contamination of every "Son of Adam" with the taint called "sin"; which -- along with the nefarious interference of the rebellious inhabitants of the spiritual dimension -- is the source of all our woe.

But God has a plan.

It involved Him entering into His own creation, like an author entering the world of his novel, and becoming a "character" in it, in order to suffer and die on our behalf, and for the remission of our sin.

Now -- a fair question, if you are able to accept any of this, would be "why?" Why go to so much trouble? Why all the pain, the suffering, the death?

I borrow from Ravi Zacharias (who may in turn be borrowing from someone else -- this is an old story, that has been analyzed from every conceivable angle, and is still being done so -- e.g., this very site):

perhaps He saw that a REDEEMED creation would be even better than an unfallen one.

I can see that. There are qualities in a redeemed creation that perhaps would be unnecessary in a perfect one: mercy? Patience? Self-sacrifice? Courage? Faith itself?

As for the mean ol' YHWH:

we in the West are the beneficiaries of centuries of the ameliorating effects of cultural Christianity; the "Christian Religion" (genuine Christianity is not a religion; and cannot be compulsory, or used to govern anything other than an individual or congregation).

We have a hard time, in our cultural cocoon of prosperity and entertainment and vague agnosticism (Whateverism), perceiving the true depravity of man.

Even though the Godless, atheistic systems of the 20th century produced the gulag and the gas chamber, and the systematic elimination of 10s of millions (100s of millions, if you include the abortion holocaust).

That depravity is more and more manifest in our own culture, as we run headlong away from our Judeo-Christian heritage, and the fumes of it dissipate.

And now, we are engaged in a conflict with the age old enemies of God's chosen people, the "children of the flesh", the descendants of Ishmael and Esau. ISIS, anyone?

The Godless pagans of antiquity were brutal and depraved almost beyond our imagining (though our Godless pagan filmmakers are giving them a run for their money, in a representative form).

And God took one man, whose faith He accounted as righteousness, and made of His descendants a people from whom He would enter into His creation. A people He separated, and made exclusive promises to. All the while respecting their autonomy and free will, within the context of His own sovereignty.

Tough job. Tough story.

The Bible is hard-hitting, unflinching, and inerrant in the telling of it.

[MuffMaYne]

[Replying to post 1 by marco]

I haven't been on this forum for a while, life got a little busy but its nice to see its still going.

Why does anyone believe in God? They've themselves been convinced of His existence and in one form or another have a relationship with Him. Your caricature of the God of the Bible is formed from a bias. Theres no difference from the OT God and the NT God. Theres punishment, love, creation, destruction, blessings, curses, and everything in-between in both the Old and New Testament.

Its not fear, its not hate, its not bigotry, none of these things are the opposite of love anyways. Apathy would be the opposite of love. They believe because they sought and they found.

Jer 29:13 You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart

[JehovahsWitness]

Does He love us? That's a tough question.

Not really "a tough question" at all ... for the faithful.

JEREMIAH 31:2, 3
This is what Jehovah says ... "I have loved you with an everlasting love. That is why I have drawn you to me with loyal love"

EXODUS 34:6
Jehovah was passing before him and declaring: “Jehovah, Jehovah, a God merciful and compassionate, slow to anger and abundant in loyal love and truth

DEUTERONOMY 7:9
Jehovah your God is the true God, the faithful God, keeping his covenant and loyal love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments

NWT

My earlier post on this topic
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 944#869944

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

LOVE, LIFE, and ... THE DIVINE PERSONALITY