A changing timeless God?

[McCulloch]

Modern physics views the universe as being more than just energy and matter. Time and space are seen as being part of the universe, not the framework that the universe exists within but part of the fabric of the universe itself.

It has been claimed that God is the creator of the universe. In order to be the universe's creator, God must therefore exist somehow beyond time and space.

But it is also claimed that God changes his plans; that God has repented of certain decisions or actions that he had made. How is this possible?

Either God created time and exists outside of time; God is eternal and changeless OR God exists within time; God can change and repent. If the latter, God did not create time; God did not create the entire universe. If the former, God cannot be said to repent or change his plans.

Is there a way out of this paradox other than atheism?

[JP Cusick]

Modern physics views the universe as being more than just energy and matter. Time and space are seen as being part of the universe, not the framework that the universe exists within but part of the fabric of the universe itself.

It has been claimed that God is the creator of the universe. In order to be the universe's creator, God must therefore exist somehow beyond time and space.

But it is also claimed that God changes his plans; that God has repented of certain decisions or actions that he had made. How is this possible?

Either God created time and exists outside of time; God is eternal and changeless OR God exists within time; God can change and repent. If the latter, God did not create time; God did not create the entire universe. If the former, God cannot be said to repent or change his plans.

Is there a way out of this paradox other than atheism?

A person creates an automobile and then gets into the auto and is then subject to the rules and restrictions of the vehicle.

So too God invents time and space, then God enters into that time and space, so then God too becomes subject to the rules and restrictions of the universe.

People create a Space Station, and the people have different rules for when they enter the Space Station from their rules and procedures outside of their creation.

God can not break His own rules or commandments or His own principles.

Physical reality is real even to its Creator.

[McCulloch]

Modern physics views the universe as being more than just energy and matter. Time and space are seen as being part of the universe, not the framework that the universe exists within but part of the fabric of the universe itself.

It has been claimed that God is the creator of the universe. In order to be the universe's creator, God must therefore exist somehow beyond time and space.

But it is also claimed that God changes his plans; that God has repented of certain decisions or actions that he had made. How is this possible?

Either God created time and exists outside of time; God is eternal and changeless OR God exists within time; God can change and repent. If the latter, God did not create time; God did not create the entire universe. If the former, God cannot be said to repent or change his plans.

Is there a way out of this paradox other than atheism?

A person creates an automobile and then gets into the auto and is then subject to the rules and restrictions of the vehicle.

So too God invents time and space, then God enters into that time and space, so then God too becomes subject to the rules and restrictions of the universe.

People create a Space Station, and the people have different rules for when they enter the Space Station from their rules and procedures outside of their creation.

God can not break His own rules or commandments or His own principles.

Physical reality is real even to its Creator.

I thought that the representatives of God break the rules in order to show that they truly represent the Creator.

[JP Cusick]

I thought that the representatives of God break the rules in order to show that they truly represent the Creator.

That is the human way - and it is reprehensible.

Obeying orders is a virtue, and following the rules is strength.

Failure to comply is a disgrace, and breaking rules is a vice.

Certainly in the USA the notion that the high and mighty do not need to follow the rules is a sickening idea, and many famous people fall by that ignorant belief.

An example of the brainwashing is in the popular show of "MASH" because it displayed the Doctors as playful and disrespectful and doing things to suit their self, while the head nurse "Hot Lips" and major Frank Burns who followed the rules were displayed as buffoons.

In real life any professional person needs to mature and to act accordingly, or else they will not last long.

In my view then science and especially the laws-of-Physics has told us that following the rules is a very real characteristic of the Creator God.

For whatever reason that message is not told clearly in the Bible that God must comply with His own rules, but it is still true, as is said = God can not lie.

[Justin108]

A person creates an automobile and then gets into the auto and is then subject to the rules and restrictions of the vehicle.

So too God invents time and space, then God enters into that time and space, so then God too becomes subject to the rules and restrictions of the universe.

That didn't stop him from turning water into wine

[JP Cusick]

So too God invents time and space, then God enters into that time and space, so then God too becomes subject to the rules and restrictions of the universe.

That didn't stop him from turning water into wine

Turning water into wine is not much of a deal.

Flying in an airplane is a far grander miracle that water into wine.

We just do not have the technology yet, but science already envisions teleportation and rearranging molecules, and we already can raise people from the dead if the Paramedics get to it fast enough.

Another huge miracle is the planet earth spinning perfectly at high speed through empty space with invisible forces controlling everything - that is a bigger miracle than anything told in any religious scripture, and yet we accept this as if it is no big deal.

No one really knows what is the thing that we call as God, even if religion might make certain claims as like = God is love, or God is spirit, but these do not give us a scientific understanding of whatever it is that created the heavens and the earth, and that is the true quest.

[Justin108]

So too God invents time and space, then God enters into that time and space, so then God too becomes subject to the rules and restrictions of the universe.

That didn't stop him from turning water into wine

Turning water into wine is not much of a deal.

Flying in an airplane is a far grander miracle that water into wine.

Flying a plane is not a miracle. Airplanes do not break any scientific laws. In fact, they make use of them. People don't just wave a wand at a lump of metal to make it fly. There's advanced aeronautical engineering involved - within the realm of science. Jesus turning water into wine falls outside the realm of science.

We just do not have the technology yet

Oh ok. What piece of technology did Jesus use to turn water into wine?

Another huge miracle is the planet earth spinning perfectly at high speed through empty space with invisible forces controlling everything

I would quote the definition of "miracle" for you since you clearly don't know it, but I know dictionary definitions make you foam at the mouth and writhe uncontrollably. But anyway, the earth spinning is not a miracle. It's science.

[McCulloch]

I thought that the representatives of God break the rules in order to show that they truly represent the Creator.

That is the human way - and it is reprehensible.

Obeying orders is a virtue, and following the rules is strength.

Failure to comply is a disgrace, and breaking rules is a vice.

I meant miracles, raising the dead (Jesus and Elijah), healing the sick (Jesus, the apostles), smite the foe (Moses, Joshua, many others) etc.

JP Cusick's claim that God must abide by the rules of the universe while within the universe is contradicted by the stories from hot Bible.

[JP Cusick]

I meant miracles, raising the dead (Jesus and Elijah), healing the sick (Jesus, the apostles), smite the foe (Moses, Joshua, many others) etc.

JP Cusick's claim that God must abide by the rules of the universe while within the universe is contradicted by the stories from hot Bible.

I am grateful that you did not throw the dictionary-Gods at me but I have to address them anyway.

Defining miracles as supernatural is just a way of circumventing the truth.

Humanity is simply growing up, so a child sees things as amazing and supernatural while as an adult we learn to see life more realistically, and that is the point of evolution and it is the point of God raising His children into adulthood.

Viewing the planet earth spinning around with invisible forces holding it perfectly in sequence is a truly fantastic miracle and to view this as not being supernatural is taking the dictionary-Gods into the absurdities.

It is not natural for humans to fly even in an airplane - so flying is unnatural but not supernatural.

We could envision some scientist in the future who learn how to go back in time as like on Star Trek, so Doctor McCoy and MR Spock go back in time to the 1st century and they heal the sick and raise a few people from the dead and walk on water and changed water into wine, and they do it all with super or advanced technology, and of course Captain Kirk gets all the glory as the people see Kirk as being the God or the Son of God in person.

That is perfectly reasonable for a scientific God back in those older times.

If is absurd to say that if God does it then it must be a supernatural miracle, but if science does it then it is just natural.

[Justin108]

I am grateful that you did not throw the dictionary-Gods at me but I have to address them anyway.

Defining miracles as supernatural is just a way of circumventing the truth.

Ok let's cast away these "dictionary-Gods". Oxford and Merriam-Webster clearly don't know as much as you do about the English language. So please, share some of your endless linguistic mastery. What does "miracle" mean?

Humanity is simply growing up, so a child sees things as amazing and supernatural while as an adult we learn to see life more realistically

Says the guy who considers airplanes to be literal miracles. Does that place you in the first category as a child that sees things as amazing and supernatural?

Viewing the planet earth spinning around with invisible forces holding it perfectly in sequence is a truly fantastic miracle and to view this as not being supernatural is taking the dictionary-Gods into the absurdities.

So you believe the Earth spinning is a supernatural phenomenon? Did you perhaps skip science in school? Is science another unholy idol like the dictionary-Gods?

We could envision some scientist in the future who learn how to go back in time as like on Star Trek, so Doctor McCoy and MR Spock go back in time to the 1st century and they heal the sick and raise a few people from the dead and walk on water and changed water into wine, and they do it all with super or advanced technology, and of course Captain Kirk gets all the glory as the people see Kirk as being the God or the Son of God in person.

Yes except Jesus did it without the help of advanced technology. Which means he broke the rules and restrictions of the universe that you said he would never do in post 2.

So too God invents time and space, then God enters into that time and space, so then God too becomes subject to the rules and restrictions of the universe.

- Jesus broke these rules and restrictions when he turned water into wine