According to JW's, will the 144 000 be only white men?

[Justin108]

Is there a reason Jehovah's Witness art always depict the 144 000 as all white men? Or is it just coincidence?

[JehovahsWitness]

According to JW's, will the 144 000 be only white men?

No that is not a Jehovah's Witness belief. Both men and women from all nationalities have had the privilege of being part of that number.

The illustrations if you look carefully are not of those humans that could be identified by the skin colour or sex but of those chosen individuals in place in heaven and are for the most part based on Revelation 14. Once resurrected to heaven these ones will no longer be human but spirit. Of course spirits are invisible to humans and do not have human bodies. Like angels they will not be subject to physicality nor catagorized by sex.

No one actually knows what a spirit looks like. Given the above, any illustration will simply be an artist's attempt to depict what has never been seen and cannot be seen by humans.

Is there a reason Jehovah's Witness art always depict the 144 000 as all white men?

If one wants to depict angels or spirits in any way, by definition the depiction is inaccurate. that said, Revelation 14 speaks symbolically of the 144,000 as being men (or at least says they "had not defiled themselves with women"). Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe this detail to be literal but no doubt it influences the artistic choices of some artists.

Thus the artist may have goals other than an accuracy impossible to attain. One goal may well be to convey equality between all spirits of a similar rank, this might be expressed artistically by making them all look the same or similar.

WHY NOT ALL BLACK?

Although there is nothing wrong with such an artistic choice there may well be some factors that influence an artists. Arguably for the modern observer, making an "all black heaven" might be seen more as a commentary on social justice for a traditionally oppressed group and detract from the point being made, than illustrative of the scripture being represented (Rev 14:1-4)

Also, when spirits have materialized to communicate with humans in the bible, they are always done so in bodies of "men" and while no mention is made of colour or hair texture, one could theorize that amongst the Hebrews the appearance of a black man might well have been noteworthy and conclude that what they saw were "men" none to difference in appearance to what they were used to seeing. As I said, this is not to say said spirits ARE white men, or that the Hebrews were a fair skinned nation, but an artist may well allow the biblical narritive to influence their choice not to present Rev 14 as homogeneously black skinned.

Arguably if the artist choses to depict angels of different colours the thought of national identity or grouping according to apparance might be the first thing one gets from the image; Or that humans resurrected to spirit life, far from being transformed into a completely different life form, will take with them some physicality. Indeed Paul vocalized the equality in regard to their heavenly calling stating:

GALATIANS 3: 27-29
For all of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in union with Christ Jesus.

WHY NOT ALL WOMEN?

That said the artist still must choose if (s)he is to depict a heavenly scene. Biblically women often depicted in a submissive position, so depicting the 144,000 as a mixed group of men and women might fail to indicate that all members are equal. And depicting them as ALL women would emphasis their submission to Christ and God. Revelation 7 and 14 (upon which the illustrations in question are based) are speaking about the rulership and authority and thus the implication of masculinity (symbolic).

The Bride of Christ

It should be noted that interestingly when the focus shifts from their authority to their submission to Christ the 144,000 are indeed presented as women, a woman in fact, called in scripture Christ's bride (see Revelation 19:7)

In any case, Jehovah's Witnesses illustrations are just that, illustrastions and especially when depicted the spirit world should not be taken to be more than an artists impression attempting to communicate what the bible says about a particular idea. In this case not that spirits are white or male but that those of the same rank and position are all equal ("same"), not catagorized by physicality (no racial divides), have authority (symbolically male).

[Justin108]

The illustrations if you look carefully are not of those humans that could be identified by the skin colour or sex but of those chosen individuals in place in heaven. Once resurrected to heaven these ones will no longer be human but spirit. Of course spirits are invisible to humans and do not have human bodies. Like angels they will not be subject to physicality nor catagorized by sex.

Then why are they depicted as white, bearded men? You agree that these illustrations are not exactly accurate and merely representative. Why then not represent the various spirits with a variety of sexes and races? Is there a reason JW artists chose to represent the 144 000 as white men?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 3 by Justin108]

Please see edits above. I tried to explain as best I can given that I myself am not the artist nor am I privy to editorial decisions of those that publish our publications.

JW

[Justin108]

[Replying to post 3 by Justin108]

Please see edits above. I tried to explain as best I can given that I myself am not the artist nor am I privy to editorial decisions of those that publish our publications.

JW

Yet you are ever so eager to use these images in your responses. A tendency I cannot even begin to understand. Why use these illustrations if they are inaccurate and in no way contributes to any of your arguments?

Is there a reason Jehovah's Witness art always depict the 144 000 as all white men?

If one wants to depictangels or spirits in any way, by definition the depiction is inaccurate.

I get that. My issue is not that it needs to be accurate. I know the depictions essentially need to be inaccurate. But why would the artist choose to make it inaccurate in this way? If someone were to depict, say, a picture of hell where all the inhabitants are black people, surely you would see the problem here. Whether you believe in hell or not, someone drawing a picture of hell where everyone is black suggests something about the artist.

Thus the artist may have goals other than an accuracy impossible to attain. One goal may well be to convey equality between all spirits of a similar rank, this might be expressed artistically by making them all look the same or similar.

And the fact that he expresses this "sameness" through white men is just a coincidence?

Further when spirits have materialized to communicate with humans in the bible, they are always done so in bodies of "men" and while no mention is made of colour or hair texture, one could theorize that amongst the Hebrews the appearance of a black man might well have been noteworthy and conclude that what they saw were "men" none to difference in appearance to what they were used to seeing.

None of the people in the art above look even remotely Middle Eastern

In this case not that spirits are white but that those of the same rank and position are equal, taking a lead from scriptural depictions.

You don't think a better message of equality would be communicated by having various people of various backgrounds, races and genders sit next to each other, holding the same rank, position, etc? Depicting a large number of exclusively white men as rulers communicates the exact opposite message than equality.

[2timothy316]

LOL

The things people come up with just to so they can argue. That aside lets answer this with scripture.

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in union with Christ Jesus." - Gal 3:28

Seeing how there is really no gender with spirit creatures then the illustration isn't accurate there either. So what in the world is going on?

It's an illustration. Don't try to look more into it than that. The illustrator doesn't know what a spirit creature looks like. So rather than but blobs on a page they just used men to represent spirit creatures so that we would know there are actual beings in heaven. As soon as we know what a spirit creature looks like (if we ever do) I'm sure it will be corrected.

Also, the book that those pics came from also has words in it. I'd recommend rather than only looking at the pictures to actually read the book. I know picture books are fun to look at but adults need to eventually graduate to higher learning, reading big boy and girl words.

[Justin108]

LOL

The things people come up with just to so they can argue. That aside lets answer this with scripture.

Let's not. I'm not critiquing scripture, I'm critiquing Jehovah's Witnesses' artwork.

Seeing how there is really no gender with spirit creatures then the illustration isn't accurate there either. So what in the world is going on?

It's an illustration. Don't try to look more into it than that. The illustrator doesn't know what a spirit creature looks like.

As already discussed with JW above, I understand that the illustration is not accurate, but that doesn't answer the question of why the artist chose to represent these 144 000 spirits as white men. If someone were to depict, say, a picture of hell where all the inhabitants are black people, surely you would see the problem here. Whether you believe in hell or not, someone drawing a picture of hell where everyone is black suggests something about the artist.

I know picture books are fun to look at but adults need to eventually graduate to higher learning.

Tell that to JW who insists on posting pictures in half of his responses as though that will somehow strengthen his argument.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 7 by Justin108]

Well, write them a letter about it if you're so concerned. Since there is no 'flesh' in heaven anyway we as JWs really don't care what the illustration looks like. (1 Corinthians 15:50) Only those that wish to argue make it an issue. I'm only posting so that those that might have a genuine question about race and gender in Heaven can get an answer. I'm not here to argue or bash an artist's attempts to visually explain heavenly beings as best they know how. Such a thread is fruitless and seen as only an attempt to stir up hatred.

[Justin108]

[Replying to post 7 by Justin108]
Since there is no 'flesh' in heaven anyway we as JWs really don't care what the illustration looks like.

Then why make illustrations to begin with?

And again, I am not taking issue with the inaccuracy of the artwork, I am taking issue with the representation of the artwork.

I'm not here to argue or bash an artist's attempts to visually explain heavenly beings as best they know how.

You just told me that there will be no flesh in heaven, and now you're telling me that this was an artist's attempt to explain what heaven will be like? A bunch of bearded white dudes?

Either the artist tried to illustrate what heaven will literally be like (which you seem to disagree with), or this is a representation of what heaven will be like. To which my question stands; why is the representation a bunch of white men? Are white men representative of the 144 000 rulers?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 9 by Justin108]

Did you know that you can write to the people that approve what images go into JW books and magazines? You will even get a speedy reply. Write them at the following address with your questions.

Jehovah’s Witnesses
900 Red Mills Road
WALLKILL NY 12589-3223

Have a good day!