Medical miracles at Lourdes?

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Mithrae
Prodigy
Posts: 4304
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:33 am
Location: Australia
Has thanked: 100 times
Been thanked: 190 times

Medical miracles at Lourdes?

Post #1

Post by Mithrae »

Since the alleged apparitions of Mary there in 1858, it's estimated that over 200 million people have visited the shrine at Lourdes, over 4 million per year as of the 1980s. Many of these - some 65,000 per year in the 1980s - are "registered and documented as sick" (Dowling, 1984), and some visitors claim that their illnesses have been healed in their visits to the shrine. Greater or lesser degrees of investigation and scepticism have attended these claims over the centuries, but since the late 1940s/early 1950s a three-part process has been in place:

> Initial discussion and follow-up by the Lourdes Medical Bureau - If it appears that a claim of a cure is serious, the chief physician at Lourdes convenes a 'Bureau' for discussing the case, to which all doctors and healthcare workers present in Lourdes at that time are invited, regardless of their religious belief. The Bureau doesn't make an immediate decision - the alleged cure may be just a temporary remission after all - but a file will be passed on to the next stage if and when a three-quarters majority is satisfied that a genuine cure has occurred.

> Detailed investigation by the International Medical Committee of Lourdes (CMIL) - A national committee from 1947 and international from 1954, this committee consists of twenty to thirty doctors and medical professors "respected in their own particular area." Members are not always all Catholics, though judging by statements on their website they probably are all Christians; it is chaired jointly by the Bishop of Tarbes and Lourdes and one of its members nominated by the Bishop, with the doctor of Lourdes serving as secretary. One or more of its members are charged with examining a case in detail and informing themselves on all the medical literature published on related subjects, potentially consulting with colleagues on the outside, and reporting at an annual meeting. When everything is in place (which can take some time) the committee decides by way of a vote whether to declare or refuse to confirm that this cure is inexplicable according to present scientific knowledge. This vote requires a two-thirds majority to pass. An article in the Journal of the Royal Society of Medicine (Dowling, 1984) describes the process in some detail:
  • The report is then discussed critically at length under 18 headings, a vote being taken at each stage. In the first three stages the Committee considers the diagnosis and has to satisfy itself that a correct diagnosis has been made and proven by the production of the results of full physical examination, laboratory investigations, X-ray studies and endoscopy and biopsy where applicable: failure at this stage is commonly because of inadequate investigation or missing documents. At the next two stages the Committee must be satisfied that the disease was organic and serious without any significant degree of psychological overlay. Next it must make sure that the natural history of the disease precludes the possibility of spontaneous remission and that the medical treatment given cannot have effected the cure: cases ruled out here are those about which there cannot be any certainty that the treatment has not been effective - e.g. a course of cytotoxic drugs would lead to the case being rejected, even where the likelihood of success was small. Then the evidence that the patient has indeed been cured is scrutinized and the Committee must be satisfied that both objective signs and subjective symptoms have disappeared and that investigations are normal. The suddenness and completeness of the cure are considered together with any sequelae. Finally, the adequacy of the length of follow up is considered.
> Ecclesiastical confirmation as a 'miracle' - Not really important for our purposes, except to note that there may be more cures that passed the first two stages which aren't seen on the publicized miracle lists; for example, the patient's local bishop is unlikely to confirm a cure as an act of God if the patient has since lived a life of depravity. But perhaps more importantly, it means that the medical professionals consulted along the way are not asked to make a judgement about miracles, only on whether an illness was organic and serious, whether an 'instantaneous' cure occurred, and whether it can be explained by current medical science.

There have been twenty-eight Lourdes healings confirmed as miraculous since 1948. For my own ease of reference, I have listed the modern cures both in order of the cure date, and in order they were declared to be miracles here in Google Sheets, which should be visible to anyone.



Personal assessment
It's possible that they were all 'miracles' of course, but as a sceptic there are some obvious problems with assuming that to be the case. For starters, if up to one-third of the CMIL members - Christian doctors nominated by the Catholic Church - may have considered some of those miracles to be explainable by the medical science of their own day, why should any non-Christian sceptic give them a second thought? And secondly, the occurrence of those alleged miracles is remarkably unbalanced: Going by date of cure rather than date of acknowledgement, there were seven miraculous cures in the 1940s and eleven in the 1950s... then two in the 1960s, two in the 1970s and two in the 1980s.

From those numbers, I think it's not unreasonable to suppose that the Bureau and Committee since the 1960s has held itself to higher standards of scepticism than in the 1940s and 50s. That doesn't mean that the earlier cures were not miraculous; though with human error and biases being what they are, not to mention more limited medical knowledge and technology in earlier decades, presumably some of them were not. But if we hold ourselves to the highest levels of scepticism, and given our limited time and patience for a full investigation, it would be sensible focus only on the acknowledged cures which have occurred since 1960.

Considering the first problem, I contacted the enquiries center of the Lourdes website, asking "whether there is any record for the breakdown of votes on whether a healing is unexplained: EG, Were there any unanimous or near-unanimous votes, and how many were a narrow majority?" They eventually replied saying that "Unfortunately there are no records of votes on the cures that have been discussed and voted at CMIL. The required quorum is however of at least 2/3 of the voters." That's disappointing. However I think that any easy presumptions on that basis are offset by two key points:
- The fact, which I didn't initially know, that referral from the Bureau requires at least a three-quarters majority of doctors not specifically nominated by the Church (albeit presumably less informed on the specifics of both the illness and the case than the CMIL will be), and
- The decision above to focus primarily on cures where the process was obviously not as 'trigger-happy' as it was (albeit only by comparison!*) in the first thirteen years.

* Of the cases examined in an article from Oxford University's Journal of the History of Medicine and Allied Sciences (Francois et al, 2012; Figure 2), in the first thirteen years from 1947, some 14 cures were confirmed by the Committee compared with 648 files open with the Bureau (2.16%); whereas throughout the 60s, 70s and 80s there were 11 confirmed cures against 693 open Bureau files (1.59%).

A third obvious and often-raised point of potential scepticism regarding the cures of Lourdes generally is that they seem to have stopped - the last confirmed cure occurred in 1989. However I think this one is mistaken or misleading for at least two reasons. Firstly, the implication that if no alleged cures from 1990 onwards are 'medically inexplicable' the earlier cures mustn't have been remarkable either is faulty logic; if that were so, it should be relatively easy for modern doctors to explain many of those alleged miracles, yet that doesn't generally seem to be the case (see below). But secondly and perhaps more importantly, there seems to be little reason to expect that there should have been many cures since 1990 confirmed yet to begin with. Based on the six confirmed cures which have occurred since 1960, the average wait between the cure and its confirmation as a 'miracle' has been over 19 years; so by 2017, we'd have little reason to expect that any cures since 1999 would have been confirmed yet. And with an average of one cure per five years during 1960-1990, we might somewhat fallaciously expect that there 'should' have been a cure from the mid 1990s confirmed by now, but that's about it. That is obviously a very poor basis for any presumption that the cures have stopped!



Sceptical reactions
Obviously before leaping to any conclusions, it's important to have a look around and see if there are any easy or obvious alternatives to consider. However outside of a few specifics, this doesn't seem to be the case:
> The Skeptic's Dictionary provides some interesting perspectives and statistics, but does not actually dispute any of the 28 'miracles' confirmed since 1948.
> The Miracle Sceptic site offers a great deal of scathing rhetoric, but directly disputes only a single one of the reported miracles (Delizia Cirolli, cured 1976).
> A second disputed case is reported by James Randi, as quoted in Wikipedia (Serge Perrin, cured 1970; which may be alluded to in the Miracle Sceptic site, though in the midst of all its vague rhetoric it's hard to be sure).

In both of the latter cases, the sceptics appeal to alternative medical opinions which necessarily will be less familiar with the specifics of the case than the doctors doing the initial investigations. Moreover one cannot help but wonder whether they would get the same answers if they asked two or three or different doctor's/groups' opinions; or indeed, whether they had to ask for a few opinions before getting the sceptical responses publicized. Nevertheless these - like the 'mere' two-thirds majority vote required by the CMIL - highlight the fact that unanimity is virtually impossible to attain in any field outside mathematics and the hard physical sciences (and even then, often only after a matter of decades!). I'm reminded of the fact that only 80-90% of climate scientists acknowledge the dominant human impact on recent warming, for example :lol:

An even more interesting sceptical opinion comes from a member of the CMIL himself which I was lucky enough to stumble across in a transcript of a BBC radio programme. Dr. Dennis Daly offers a somewhat scathing criticism for the case of "an Italian soldier" (Vittorio Michelli, cured 1963), which I'm inclined to agree was a suspect case from what I've read elsewhere. But the main topic of the programme was the cure of Jean-Pierre Bely (cured 1987), which Dr. Daly evidently cast his vote as being not currently medically inexplicable, simply on the basis of doubts about the diagnosis.

This is particularly interesting because it highlights how stringent the Lourdes requirements actually are: Members of the CMIL consider, quite fairly and appropriately, that they should refrain from giving a positive vote to a cure such as Bely's merely because they question the specific diagnosis. This is already quite a long OP, so I'll make this the only one of the six post-1960 cures that I describe, at least to begin with. But I think it's important to note (while also bearing in mind that most of the doctors did confirm this diagnosis) that even with his speculation that the illness may have been "psychological or psychiatric," Dr. Daly suggests that this cure would be "still a very remarkable thing":
  • Bely was born on August 24, 1936. By profession, he was an anesthesia and intensive-care nurse. In 1972 he began to suffer growing neurological incapacity, which eventually was diagnosed as multiple sclerosis. By 1984 he was walking with a cane, and in 1985 he required a wheelchair. Two years later, he was in a devastating state: bedridden, he received a 100% invalidity pension and an allowance for a third person to look after him.

    In October, 1987, Jean-Pierre Bely went on pilgrimage to Lourdes. After celebrating the Sacrament of Reconciliation in the sick room on October 8, Bely received the Sacrament of the Sick the next day during Mass in the Rosary Square. He was part of the French Rosary Pilgrimage. All of a sudden, he was overcome by a powerful sense of interior liberation and peace, something he had never experienced before.

    On Friday, October 9 at midday, while lying in the sick room he experienced a sense of cold which grew stronger and became painful only to give way to a subsequent feeling of warmth which grew in intensity. Bely sat on the edge of his bed and was able to move his arms. The following night, although in a deep sleep, he woke up suddenly and discovered he could walk -- for the first time, since 1984.

    At the end of the pilgrimage, Bely traveled to the station in his wheelchair, so as not to appear different from his "companions in sickness." But by the time he reached the train, he decided to enter alone and remain seated during the return journey to his home town of Angouleme. He had regained the complete use of his physical faculties, and the medical reports showed no trace of illness.

Was this a miracle cure? It's obvious that even with all the careful documentation and investigation in place at Lourdes, it is quite probably impossible to achieve unanimity and certainty in this area (as in any other). But perhaps a more pertinent question would be whether even the most die-hard sceptics can brush incidents like this aside without question or pause? Is the oft-repeated mantra of "zero evidence" that paranormal events occur actually an objective assessment?

Or should a reasonable enquirer conclude that there is very intriguing and even compelling evidence, regardless of whether or not it meets one's personal threshold for 'belief,' for trying to fit it into one's worldview?

User avatar
Mithrae
Prodigy
Posts: 4304
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:33 am
Location: Australia
Has thanked: 100 times
Been thanked: 190 times

Re: Medical miracles at Lourdes?

Post #11

Post by Mithrae »

DanieltheDragon wrote: [Replying to post 5 by Mithrae]

The people in charge of the panel were from Lourdes. It is not hard to skew a panel like this especially if you are seeking a specific result.
Do you speak from some personal experience in persuading groups of medical or academic professionals to violate their ethics and risk their reputations? Or is this just a convenient throw-away line offered without a single shred of evidence to back it up?

The vote to confirm a cure as medically unexplained requires a two-thirds majority of a panel with over twenty members, only 2-3 of whom have any vested interest or close association with Lourdes; the chief physician of Lourdes, secretary to the panel, the Bishop of Tarbes and Lourdes, and presumably his co-chair would need a more regular association with it also. The other 17-27 international members meet annually - that's once per year - to discuss the details of current files and cast their votes. The rest of the time, back in their own countries they have their own lives and careers and reputations to attend to. Yes they're Christians, as I noted, but being a Christian doesn't automatically make someone lying scum; and if anything, the non-Catholic members of the CMIL are just as likely to be biased against any miracles attributed to Mary the "Immaculate Conception."

You're putting an awful lot of faith in your unsubstantiated speculation that it would be easy to manipulate so many medical professionals into fraudulently certifying cures.
DanieltheDragon wrote:
it is chaired jointly by the Bishop of Tarbes and Lourdes and one of its members nominated by the Bishop, with the doctor of Lourdes serving as secretary
Moreover, this panel does not in the least represent a science nor evidence based approach. Merely a panel of doctors appointed by a bishop and local doctor, asked to give their opinion on whether or not this was a miracle.
Sigh. No, they are not asked to give their opinion on whether it was a miracle :roll: Again, I explicitly highlighted this in the OP: The two panels (the Bureau and the CMIL) "are not asked to make a judgement about miracles, only on whether an illness was organic and serious, whether an 'instantaneous' [and complete] cure occurred, and whether it can be explained by current medical science."

Those are scientific questions which the doctors involved can professionally answer. They could not make any assessment about 'miracles' in their professional capacity, and they are not asked to - they merely offer their assessment of whether or not a cure is medically inexplicable. Not all of the certified inexplicable cures are eventually designated as 'miracles' by the Catholic Church necessarily, but all of the Lourdes 'miracles' have been confirmed as an immediate and complete cure of a serious organic illness which can't be explained by contemporary medical science.
DanieltheDragon wrote:I would be more convinced if the WHO or some independent body actually investigated this.
I'm sure you would; articles in peer-reviewed scientific journals and critical investigations by the likes of James Randi and BBC documentaries between them suggest nothing more than alternative opinions about some of the cures... but the goalpost obviously lies just a little further beyond what's available, doesn't it? ;)

It's worth noting that the Catholic Church was under no real obligation to scrutinize these miracles to begin with. Popular scepticism was hardly widespread in the 1940s and 50s when the CMIL was instituted. But as noted in Francois et al 2012, all the way back in 1734 Cardinal Prospero Lambertini (later Pope Benedict XIV) set out some pretty strict rules for investigation of alleged 'miracle' cures:
  • 1. Firstly, the disease should be serious, incurable or difficult to treat.
    2. Secondly, the eradicated disease should not be in its final stage or at a stage whereby it may involve spontaneous recovery.
    3. Thirdly, no drug should have been administered or, in the event that it has been administered, the absence of any effects should have been ascertained.
    4. Fourthly, the recovery has to take place suddenly and instantly.
    5. Fifthly, the recovery has to be perfect, and not defective or partial.
    6. Sixthly, it is necessary that any noteworthy excretion or crisis has taken place at the proper time, as a reasonable result of an ascertained cause, prior to the recovery; under these circumstances the recovery cannot be deemed prodigious, but totally or partially natural.
    7. Lastly, it is necessary for the eradicated disease not to reappear.
    (Source)
It is to their credit that the Catholic Church has even further strengthened their investigative process over time - though also to their benefit. After all, belief in modern miracles is not a requirement of Catholic doctrine, whereas frequently promoting shoddy or deceitful miracles could be a serious blow to their perceived authority. 'Miracles' which are debunked after fifty or a hundred years are one thing - they'd served their purpose and it's easy to pass the buck on those - but they definitely have a vested interest in not proclaiming something a miracle only to have it instantly and easily debunked.

And obviously these Lourdes cures, which certainly have attracted a lot of attention and investigation, have not been quickly or easily debunked. Alternative speculation about only some of the cures since 1960, that's about it (and presumably a higher percentage of the earlier ones).

User avatar
Mithrae
Prodigy
Posts: 4304
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:33 am
Location: Australia
Has thanked: 100 times
Been thanked: 190 times

Re: Medical miracles at Lourdes?

Post #12

Post by Mithrae »

Jagella wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Mithrae]
But perhaps a more pertinent question would be whether even the most die-hard sceptics can brush incidents like this aside without question or pause?
There might be something to this incident. It seems very possible to me that nature sometimes acts in ways we may not expect. Is a god performing magic in there somewhere? Maybe. Maybe not.
That's the real question, and thankyou for answering it. Different people are going to have a different personal threshold of how much evidence they'll require before "believing" something - before acknowledging it as something which they need to make room for in their worldview. Things which easily fit into a person's worldview are much easier to accept; by contrast it's not surprising if people whose worldview has hitherto precluded 'miracles' are not immediately persuaded even by the well-documented evidence of the Lourdes cures. And indeed they shouldn't be quick to believe, and personally I don't like the idea of "believing" something at all; I prefer to think in terms of probabilities (or plausibility) of a statement being true (hence to my mind perhaps a 70 to 90% probability that the Jean-Pierre Bely cure was genuinely paranormal).

So what's important is not whether die-hard sceptics are persuaded by this - they won't be - but whether we can all acknowledge that this is very intriguing, if not compelling evidence: Whether the insulting and dismissive attitudes which some folk (not you) display could be toned down now that some very reasonable evidence has again been shown, even if it's not quite enough for some people.
Jagella wrote:In any case, we skeptics are still waiting for that restored limb. I do hope that God is responsible enough to have the media there to get it on camera. Some known and respected investigator of the paranormal like James Randi should be there too to check things out.
That goes back to my comments in your other thread: We might want that level of proof, but there's obviously no reason to expect it even if miracles do occur. I would argue that this Lourdes evidence is actually as strong if not stronger than mere video and a single famous sceptic's opinion (though as noted, James Randi has written about Lourdes too). And especially considering that it's been primarily a result of the Catholic Church's own initiative to scrutinize reports and ensure that readily-explainable cures are not dubbed miraculous, it's actually surprising and impressive how well-documented these are!

DanieltheDragon
Savant
Posts: 6224
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:37 pm
Location: Charlotte
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Medical miracles at Lourdes?

Post #13

Post by DanieltheDragon »

[Replying to post 11 by Mithrae]
Sigh. No, they are not asked to give their opinion on whether it was a miracle Rolling Eyes Again, I explicitly highlighted this in the OP: The two panels (the Bureau and the CMIL) "are not asked to make a judgement about miracles, only on whether an illness was organic and serious, whether an 'instantaneous' [and complete] cure occurred, and whether it can be explained by current medical science."

Those are scientific questions which the doctors involved can professionally answer. They could not make any assessment about 'miracles' in their professional capacity, and they are not asked to - they merely offer their assessment of whether or not a cure is medically inexplicable. Not all of the certified inexplicable cures are eventually designated as 'miracles' by the Catholic Church necessarily, but all of the Lourdes 'miracles' have been confirmed as an immediate and complete cure of a serious organic illness which can't be explained by contemporary medical science.
You ever hear of the word euphemism? The CMIL puts out a list of cases they qualify as no medical explanation and the Catholic Church takes that list and declares miracle. That's having your cake and eating it to in my book. "Oh no we didn't ask the doctors if it was a miracle", but since they can't explain it we have a miracle on our hands. The question you claim is a scientific one is just a big fat argument from ignorance fallacy.
Post 1: Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:48 am Otseng has been banned
Otseng has been banned for having multiple accounts and impersonating a moderator.

DanieltheDragon
Savant
Posts: 6224
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:37 pm
Location: Charlotte
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Medical miracles at Lourdes?

Post #14

Post by DanieltheDragon »

[Replying to post 11 by Mithrae]
Do you speak from some personal experience in persuading groups of medical or academic professionals to violate their ethics and risk their reputations? Or is this just a convenient throw-away line offered without a single shred of evidence to back it up?
This occurs regularly in the advertising industry. It's how you get doctors recommending hydroxycut or various other supplements. It's how you get 4of5 doctors recommend X product.

How would any of these doctors risk their reputations? As you said there was no list of actual votes cast. Only that 2/3s would vote yes. If their reputation was under threat it wouldn't be that hard to claim you were the 1/3 who voted no.

As for violating ethics do you really think it's that hard to find 20 or 30 doctors in the world who wouldn't cash in? Just recently there was a major arrest of a group of doctors for violating ethics and defrauding the government. This is neither illegal or unethical, I don't think it would honestly be that hard to ask a loaded question to a panel of hand picked doctors to get an answer you wanted from the onset.
Post 1: Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:48 am Otseng has been banned
Otseng has been banned for having multiple accounts and impersonating a moderator.

User avatar
Mithrae
Prodigy
Posts: 4304
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:33 am
Location: Australia
Has thanked: 100 times
Been thanked: 190 times

Re: Medical miracles at Lourdes?

Post #15

Post by Mithrae »

DanieltheDragon wrote: [Replying to post 11 by Mithrae]
Do you speak from some personal experience in persuading groups of medical or academic professionals to violate their ethics and risk their reputations? Or is this just a convenient throw-away line offered without a single shred of evidence to back it up?
This occurs regularly in the advertising industry. It's how you get doctors recommending hydroxycut or various other supplements. It's how you get 4of5 doctors recommend X product.

How would any of these doctors risk their reputations? As you said there was no list of actual votes cast. Only that 2/3s would vote yes. If their reputation was under threat it wouldn't be that hard to claim you were the 1/3 who voted no.

As for violating ethics do you really think it's that hard to find 20 or 30 doctors in the world who wouldn't cash in? Just recently there was a major arrest of a group of doctors for violating ethics and defrauding the government. This is neither illegal or unethical, I don't think it would honestly be that hard to ask a loaded question to a panel of hand picked doctors to get an answer you wanted from the onset.
And yet you have provided not a single shred of evidence for this supposed conspiracy. As I commented to Jagella, I for one would definitely not consider it certain that this cure of Jean-Pierre Bely was a genuine paranormal event: Even though it is obviously in the Catholic Church's interest to scrutinize these cures carefully, to ensure they aren't declaring 'miracle' on something which will be quickly and easily debunked, there might well be a 5 or maybe even 10% possibility that the scenario you are imagining has occurred.

Is that the argument you are making? If so then you're probably right, and we're on the same page.

Or do you think that our unsubstantiated speculation into alternative possibilities should count for more than that?

User avatar
Jagella
Banned
Banned
Posts: 3667
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:01 am
Been thanked: 2 times
Contact:

Re: Medical miracles at Lourdes?

Post #16

Post by Jagella »

[Replying to post 12 by Mithrae]
Things which easily fit into a person's worldview are much easier to accept; by contrast it's not surprising if people whose worldview has hitherto precluded 'miracles' are not immediately persuaded even by the well-documented evidence of the Lourdes cures.
I think skepticism is fully justified in this case. If I live my whole life seeing zero good evidence for the miraculous and much good evidence for chicanery on the part of religious believers, am I to suddenly accept the claim that some spirit lady used miraculous water to "cure" a person I know almost nothing about? Does it make me a stubborn atheist if I don't just accept this miracle at Lourdes? I should point out that very few protestants accept these miracle claims at Lourdes either. Are they denying the supernatural?
That goes back to my comments in your other thread: We might want that level of proof, but there's obviously no reason to expect it even if miracles do occur.
Yes, there's no reason to expect good evidence if a miracle happens. Maybe the Virgin Mary cures wild animals of diseases in remote areas with no humans ever aware of her doing so. What I do look for is good evidence if I am aware of a claimed miracle. If I don't get that evidence, then I probably won't believe the claim. That doesn't make me stubborn--that makes me prudent.
I would argue that this Lourdes evidence is actually as strong if not stronger than mere video and a single famous sceptic's opinion (though as noted, James Randi has written about Lourdes too).
But Randi never confirmed any miracle at Lourdes or anywhere else. If he did, then at the very least it would raise a lot of eyebrows. It sure would get my attention!
...it's actually surprising and impressive how well-documented these are!
Surprising, perhaps, but not too impressive. Publishing in a peer-reviewed journal is only one step in the confirmation process. We need to know what other professionals think of the published material. Have medical researchers concluded that some miracle did take place here? Has it reached the status of a "fact"?

Finally, I should point out that any apparent cure for disease is very ambiguous. I've had kidney stones disappear, and I've gotten over long illnesses. I do not know why the stones disappeared or why I got over long illnesses. My doctors don't know either. I never once prayed or made any visits to Lourdes seeking cures. If there is anything miraculous going on here, then God is not making his work obvious. He evidently enjoys being mysterious, fears skeptics and is very camera shy!

DanieltheDragon
Savant
Posts: 6224
Joined: Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:37 pm
Location: Charlotte
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Medical miracles at Lourdes?

Post #17

Post by DanieltheDragon »

[Replying to post 15 by Mithrae]

I am not alleging a conspconspiracy in the least. Just natural human bias. That is why the scientific method includes a stringent falsification process. If you want to take another tag.

Just crunch the numbers 4,000,000 sick people a year have been visiting since the 60s. That's roughly 160,000,000 through 2000. How many "cures" do we have since then?

Maybe a dozen? I really don't see anything supernatural just a normal statistical chance for spontaneous healing.
Post 1: Wed Apr 01, 2015 10:48 am Otseng has been banned
Otseng has been banned for having multiple accounts and impersonating a moderator.

User avatar
Mithrae
Prodigy
Posts: 4304
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:33 am
Location: Australia
Has thanked: 100 times
Been thanked: 190 times

Re: Medical miracles at Lourdes?

Post #18

Post by Mithrae »

DanieltheDragon wrote: [Replying to post 15 by Mithrae]

I am not alleging a conspconspiracy in the least. Just natural human bias. That is why the scientific method includes a stringent falsification process. If you want to take another tag.

Just crunch the numbers 4,000,000 sick people a year have been visiting since the 60s. That's roughly 160,000,000 through 2000. How many "cures" do we have since then?

Maybe a dozen? I really don't see anything supernatural just a normal statistical chance for spontaneous healing.
There have not been 4 million sick people per year. Yet again, the information is very clearly provided in the OP. It seems evident that your own biases are compelling you again and again and again to invent or 'misread' the things that you want to see, rather than what's actually there.

By contrast, you have not shown even any theoretical reason why the CMIL members (besides the two based in Lourdes, and perhaps the second chairman who'd presumably spend more time there than the other international members) should be expected to have any kind of bias towards considering cures inexplicable: On the contrary, as I pointed out the non-Catholic members would be just as likely to be biased against cures which might be attributed to Mary, and the Catholic members have every reason - including church canon laid down in the 18th century, for crying out loud! - to want to avoid sullying the reputation of their faith with easily-debunked 'miracles.' Hence - again as I pointed out in the OP - while there were 693 reported cures in the 1960s to 80s for which the initial evidence was compelling enough for the Bureau to open a file (roughly 4 of every 10,000 sick pilgrims), only half a dozen measured up to the highest standards of scientific scrutiny in place.

If you believe that there is a "statistical chance" for someone paralyzed for over two years by an incurable disease to be suddenly and spontaneously cured, you are certainly welcome to present your evidence for that. But at this point all we are seeing from you is a great deal of hope and faith that it must be so because... well damnit, it just has to be!

User avatar
Mithrae
Prodigy
Posts: 4304
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:33 am
Location: Australia
Has thanked: 100 times
Been thanked: 190 times

Re: Medical miracles at Lourdes?

Post #19

Post by Mithrae »

Jagella wrote: [Replying to post 12 by Mithrae]
Things which easily fit into a person's worldview are much easier to accept; by contrast it's not surprising if people whose worldview has hitherto precluded 'miracles' are not immediately persuaded even by the well-documented evidence of the Lourdes cures.
I think skepticism is fully justified in this case. If I live my whole life seeing zero good evidence for the miraculous and much good evidence for chicanery on the part of religious believers, am I to suddenly accept the claim that some spirit lady used miraculous water to "cure" a person I know almost nothing about? Does it make me a stubborn atheist if I don't just accept this miracle at Lourdes? I should point out that very few protestants accept these miracle claims at Lourdes either. Are they denying the supernatural?
I don't know, are they? Do you have any evidence for that claim? Very few protestants have heard of the alleged miracles, I'm sure; I'd never even heard of them until I googled confirmed miracles a few weeks ago. But presumably you're referring to those who have seen the evidence, and you're going to share the source where you got that information?

I certainly would be interested in hearing the opinions of the non-Catholic Christians on this forum.
Jagella wrote:
I would argue that this Lourdes evidence is actually as strong if not stronger than mere video and a single famous sceptic's opinion (though as noted, James Randi has written about Lourdes too).
But Randi never confirmed any miracle at Lourdes or anywhere else. If he did, then at the very least it would raise a lot of eyebrows. It sure would get my attention!
Didn't the lameness of his comments (at least as quoted in Wikipedia) raise your eyebrows at all? An alternative opinion stretched out into a vague generalization? In fairness it's from a 1987 book, so only two of the post-1960 'miracles' I wanted to focus on were available to criticism, and as cited elsewhere Randi also commented on the Micheli case.

But in both cases it doesn't seem to be in dispute that A) these people were seriously ill, B) their conditions suddenly and rapidly improved when they visited Lourdes and C) the improvement was not effected by medical treatment. Offering an alternative diagnosis from a credible source certainly opens up the possibility that the cure was natural, but doesn't prove it to be so. Even if one chose to trust the American team more than Perrin's own doctors and the CMIL rapporteur/s who investigated all the details of the case, assuming a high level of confidence that he was misdiagnosed would still leave a low level of confidence in the original diagnoses, and hence a distinct, evidence-based possibility that it was a genuinely paranormal cure.
Jagella wrote:
...it's actually surprising and impressive how well-documented these are!
Surprising, perhaps, but not too impressive. Publishing in a peer-reviewed journal is only one step in the confirmation process. We need to know what other professionals think of the published material. Have medical researchers concluded that some miracle did take place here? Has it reached the status of a "fact"?

Finally, I should point out that any apparent cure for disease is very ambiguous. I've had kidney stones disappear, and I've gotten over long illnesses. I do not know why the stones disappeared or why I got over long illnesses. My doctors don't know either. I never once prayed or made any visits to Lourdes seeking cures. If there is anything miraculous going on here, then God is not making his work obvious. He evidently enjoys being mysterious, fears skeptics and is very camera shy!
Evidently so. Maybe it's not even God :shock: The universe is full of weird stuff and mysteries at the quantum level, dark matter, speculation on parallel realities etc. (The so-called Mandela effect is an amusing notion, though easily dismissed... however certain I may be that it was Berenstein bears and Monopoly man had a monocle!) Suppose it were discovered next year that something about the human brain - or some very rare brains - allows it to manipulate something about all that weirdness in some very rare circumstances; to do things we'd otherwise consider magical or miraculous. Then of course suddenly that would be merely a natural phenomenon, if not exactly normal, which is why I'm a bit leery of the word 'miracle' and positively dislike the word 'supernatural.'

But while a scenario along those lines or more mundane advances in medical science are clearly possibilities, we've got to work with the evidence we actually have available to us. That evidence suggests that if Jean-Pierre Bely was paralyzed for over two years by an incurable disease and then suddenly and spontaneously cured, viewing it as a genuinely paranormal event is more reasonable than not. I'm not sure that the particles in a kidney stone failing to maintain their cohesion is in quite the same league as that, but if they were then the logical conclusion would be that yours was paranormal too :lol:

User avatar
Jagella
Banned
Banned
Posts: 3667
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:01 am
Been thanked: 2 times
Contact:

Re: Medical miracles at Lourdes?

Post #20

Post by Jagella »

[Replying to post 19 by Mithrae]
But presumably you're referring to those who have seen the evidence, and you're going to share the source where you got that information?
I'm referring to my personal experiences as a Pentecostal Christian in which the veneration of the Virgin Mary was seen as idolatry or "goddess worship." The Marian apparitions were not accepted as factual by the Assembly of God. I should point out that the apparition at Fatima had a strong Catholic spin on it. It is claimed that Mary demanded that we pray the rosary. How many protestants started counting beads?

In any case, if you wish to dispute my view on protestants' views on the alleged miracles at Lourdes, then I'm willing to accept any evidence you have that protestants accept that the Virgin Mary has been appearing to people and performing miracles there.
Didn't the lameness of his comments (at least as quoted in Wikipedia) raise your eyebrows at all? An alternative opinion stretched out into a vague generalization?
What were his comments? As far as I know Randi never insisted that miracles cannot happen. So no, I wouldn't be too surprised if he didn't insist that there were no miracles at Lourdes. He seemed to me to be an investigator rather than a debunker of the paranormal.
I'm not sure that the particles in a kidney stone failing to maintain their cohesion is in quite the same league as that, but if they were then the logical conclusion would be that yours was paranormal too
Oh sure--maybe God and/or the Virgin Mary perform miracles right under our noses all the time, and we don't even realize it. The Devil may blind our eyes to these miracles to the chagrin of God and/or the Virgin Mary who had all their hard work thwarted. What's really troubling is that God and/or the Virgin Mary put much effort into healing people at Lourdes and having the results reported in this forum to prove it. The darned Devil is again blinding the eyes of the unbelievers here who still don't believe in miracles at Lourdes.

Post Reply