Eternal Conscious Torment

[The Tanager]

As of right now I would consider myself an Annihilationist in regards to my view of Hell. I'm not looking to try to push Annihilationism or get into a debate between the various views. I want to look more deeply into the issues around what Hell is with other minds and I would love to hear from those who believe in the eternal conscious torment view, to the various reasons you believe it makes sense within Christianity. I'm looking to challenge my view and I was hoping you all could help me out.

[The Tanager]

So to begin with, your question needs to focus on "Why should I believe we are all aspects of the One Consciousness, which is GOD?" and discover the answer to that first, then you can proceed to the question you ask regarding astral projection.

Okay. I've come across similar ideas in other places and I haven't been convinced, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't make a better case or that I wouldn't see something I didn't see before. You seem to go quite in depth in those links, but for me to read all of that and respond would become too unwieldy. Boil it down. What's the first step. Then if that step is solid we can move on to other steps.

[William]

[Replying to post 31 by The Tanager]

The first step is to want to take it.

Are you sincerely happy with your belief that GOD consciousness is separated from your own?

[The Tanager]

[Replying to post 31 by The Tanager]

The first step is to want to take it.

Are you sincerely happy with your belief that GOD consciousness is separated from your own?

I am very sincerely happy with my belief that my consciousness is separate from God's consciousness. But I value truth over happiness. If I'm being misled by my felt happiness, I would not be happy if someone could have challenged me on that, but did not. I want to take any step that leads to truth, because truth sets us free and will bring the truly abundant, joyful life.

[William]

[Replying to post 31 by The Tanager]

The first step is to want to take it.

Are you sincerely happy with your belief that GOD consciousness is separated from your own?

I am very sincerely happy with my belief that my consciousness is separate from God's consciousness. But I value truth over happiness. If I'm being misled by my felt happiness, I would not be happy if someone could have challenged me on that, but did not. I want to take any step that leads to truth, because truth sets us free and will bring the truly abundant, joyful life.

Then - in your own good time, read what I linked you to. If you see any truth in that. or have specific questions/concerns, then we can discuss it further.

[Claire Evans]

It's because I believe consciousness can never be destroyed. This is espoused also by scientists.

Some scientists seem to be saying this and others looking at the same data would disagree. That hints towards this maybe being more of a philosophical move than a scientific one.

Perhaps.

"Dr Hans-Peter Drr, former head of the institute, has said: "What we consider the here and now, this world, it is actually just the material level that is comprehensible.

"The beyond is an infinite reality that is much bigger.

The body dies but the spiritual quantum field continues. In this way, I am immortal.

Energy cannot be destroyed but merely take another form.

For this reason, I do not believe in oblivion.

But why believe our soul is physical energy?

Spirits vibrate at different frequencies, which is energy. When a spirit is seen, it is because there frequency is dialing into our own. The presence of a spirit can mess with people's electronics.

"When we discuss reaching out to our passed-on loved ones, we need to mention low vibrations. Even though we do not plan on engaging any low vibrations, we need to be aware of their existence and discuss how to protect our energy. Without turning this into physics lesson, let us start by saying all energy vibrates. Most evolved spirits vibrate at at higher frequency than that of humans, which is one of the reasons why they are somewhat intangible to some humans.

As our loved ones connect with us or others on the Earth plane, they may actually slow down their vibrations, so we can perceive and communicate with them. Slowing down of the vibrational energy is different from a low vibrational energy spirit."

http://www.anysiakiel.com/communicating ... al-energy/

Matthew 13:42New International Version (NIV)

42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

This is saying there is suffering after death.

But I don't see this passage saying people will weep and gnash forever.

The blazing furnace is forever.

Matthew 3:12
His winnowing fork is in His hand to clear His threshing floor and to gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

To the evil, oblivion is a great form of punishment. They don't want to be with God anyway so why would they want eternal life with Him?

Suicide would be a special case to consider. But I don't think that we can form our whole theory on one special case. Just like the existence of masochists for your view. We can explore that further if you think it vital to the discussion.

If you are saying that eternal conscious torment makes sense because God would want them to suffer for their evil, then annihilation is still a level of suffering/punishment/bad consequence. It's not as much suffering as other scenarios, but they still don't get what they wanted to continue living and indulging in their selfish desires.

They won't have consciousness to miss it.

If you want to take it a step further and say that eternal conscious torment makes sense because God would want them to suffer the most possible suffering for their evil, then I would ask why you think that.

It's not a case of God wanting people to be tormented but it is an inevitable result of being full of sin. As energy cannot be destroyed, there cannot be annihilation.

Let me ask you a question. Do you believe Satan would prefer annihilation where he just has no consciousness or eternal torment?

He will be tormented forever:

Revelation 20:10


And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

[JP Cusick]

The blazing furnace is forever.

Matthew 3:12
His winnowing fork is in His hand to clear His threshing floor and to gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

He will be tormented forever:

Revelation 20:10

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Paul tells that the fires of God as in the "Lake of fire" means to clean and purify the person so that they become "dead to sin" and everyone gets saved, see 1 Corinthians 3:15-16

Jesus made the point rather clear when Jesus said that not even one (1) sinful sheep will be left out or lost.

The fire of God is unquenchable because it is blessed and holy, the fires of God are not to hurt or to torture anyone.

The Devil might be "tormented" by the salvation of humanity, but tormented does not mean tortured.

[RightReason]

[Replying to The Tanager]

Sharing some thoughts from others in which I am in agreement . . .


God did not create hell so much as he allowed for its possibility. By permitting us to love him freely"or not"he allows for the possibility that we will choose to separate ourselves from him. But God does not will this for anyone.

. . . Hell is indeed eternal because the soul was created eternal.

https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print ... yes-part-i


. . . a conundrum that can really only be resolved by a kind of nihilism. For, if God keeps the souls in hell alive, then he is vengeful and hateful. But if he slays the wicked, then it would also seem, to most observers, that he is vengeful and hateful. So no matter what he does, God is vengeful and hateful. The only solution would seem to be a kind of nihilism in which we remove all ultimate notions of right and wrong, all notions of consequences, all notions of reward and ultimate justice. This in turn requires that we remove human freedom as well since, no matter what we did, the result would be the same.

Either God is vengeful and hateful or he completely removes our freedom and everything associated with it, thereby forcing one solution.

Hell has to be since God ultimately respects our freedom to choose him and his kingdom or not.

In the end the only ways for God to resolve the situation of hell would be to disregard the free choice of the damned and force them into his presence, or to kill them.

As for killing them, we live in strange times and in the culture of death wherein Death is an oft recommended therapy. Inconvenient children, unborn children with prenatal diagnosis of handicaps, the suffering and the seriously sick, are all to be treated by death, according to many in our culture. A strange and sick therapy indeed.

And in the end if God were to kill the souls in Hell He would be saying to them, and to us, you really only DO have one choice. Love me, choose me, or die, cease to exist. Is that really a choice? Is that really to love God if, in the end we there is only one lasting choice?

We are left ultimately with the mysterious reality of hell and can only conclude that, in the end hell has to be.

In the end the only ways for God to resolve the situation of hell would be to disregard the free choice of the damned and force them into his presence, or to kill them.

As for killing them, we live in strange times and in the culture of death wherein Death is an oft recommended therapy. Inconvenient children, unborn children with prenatal diagnosis of handicaps, the suffering and the seriously sick, are all to be treated by death, according to many in our culture. A strange and sick therapy indeed.

And in the end if God were to kill the souls in Hell He would be saying to them, and to us, you really only DO have one choice. Love me, choose me, or die, cease to exist. Is that really a choice? Is that really to love God if, in the end we there is only one lasting choice?

We are left ultimately with the mysterious reality of hell and can only conclude that, in the end hell has to be.

http://blog.adw.org/2011/02/does-god-lo ... ey-suffer/

[2ndRateMind]

In the end the only ways for God to resolve the situation of hell would be to disregard the free choice of the damned and force them into his presence, or to kill them.

What do you think of the idea that heaven and hell are the same place; the presence of God? Whether one loves that, or hates it, is a matter of one's chosen path in life, and how it has shaped one's character.

Best wishes, 2RM.

[RightReason]

[Replying to 2ndRateMind]

What do you think of the idea that heaven and hell are the same place; the presence of God? Whether one loves that, or hates it, is a matter of one's chosen path in life, and how it has shaped one's character.

Few thoughts that come to me . . .

I agree with your notion that it is similar to what I mentioned and what C.S. Lewis talks about. The idea that hell is a state of mind in the sense that it is what we have constructed for ourselves. We choose heaven or hell. And it could very well be not so much of an actual place, rather, the absence of God.

For that reason, I dont think one could argue heaven and hell are the same place, unless you are simply referring to place as the supernatural realm.

[The Tanager]

Spirits vibrate at different frequencies, which is energy. When a spirit is seen, it is because there frequency is dialing into our own.

That's a statement of belief. A controversial one, at that. Why should we believe it is true?

And even if we assume our spirits are material energy, why think energy cannot be destroyed? If you are talking about the law of conservation of energy, that law talks about the total energy in a closed system. Something outside of that system can add or take away energy from the no longer closed or isolated system. As creator of that system, there would be nothing illogical about God taking out or destroying some of that energy.

Or, it seems to me, even if you want to assume energy cannot be destroyed in any way, our destruction could be a change of our energy into some other use, while "we" are destroyed.

The presence of a spirit can mess with people's electronics.

If true, this alone wouldn't mean that spirits themselves are material, just that they can have an affect on material things.

The blazing furnace is forever.

Matthew 3:12
His winnowing fork is in His hand to clear His threshing floor and to gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

This analogy, it seems to me, might speak more to annihilation. Chaff is annihilated by the fire, it doesn't burn in the fire forever. And in that understanding an unquenchable fire would simply mean that the destruction will take place, it will not be thwarted or quenched.

Let me ask you a question. Do you believe Satan would prefer annihilation where he just has no consciousness or eternal torment?

Satan doesn't have a say. God's preference is what matters.

He will be tormented forever:

Revelation 20:10

And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

This is definitely a harder problem than some of the other passages, in my eyes. But my understanding is that people say the Greek translated by some as "for ever and ever" is literally "to the ages of the ages" which doesn't necessarily mean continually, for ever. Which means we go to context. What preceding and following 20:10 makes you think it necessarily has to be translated "for ever and ever" rather than to mean for a certain, if long, duration?

What does this translation mean for something like Revelation 19:3 that also uses the phrase "to the ages of the ages" concerning the city of Babylon?