Eternal Conscious Torment

[The Tanager]

As of right now I would consider myself an Annihilationist in regards to my view of Hell. I'm not looking to try to push Annihilationism or get into a debate between the various views. I want to look more deeply into the issues around what Hell is with other minds and I would love to hear from those who believe in the eternal conscious torment view, to the various reasons you believe it makes sense within Christianity. I'm looking to challenge my view and I was hoping you all could help me out.

[JehovahsWitness]

Two, assuming this is true, it wouldn't mean that our spirits would have to be vibrations as well. A human could be made up of material vibrating as well as non-vibrating immaterial spirit.

The spirit biblically is simply the force or power that animates us that comes from God, as the bible says its the same spirit or active force in an animal or a worm or a human. Humans don't have an invisible immortal soul, that's just pagan nonsense adopted by apostate christianity. A soul biblically is simply a sysnonym of person or animal (ie flesh and blood living breathing being).



All human conscienceness ends at death. There is no "afterlife".


JEHOVAHS WITNESS

RELATED POSTS

What is a soul?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 46#p821046

Is the soul immortal?
viewtopic.php?p=832209#p832209

Is there a difference between the soul and the spirit?
viewtopic.php?p=820981#p820981

What is a soul/spirit/death/hell?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 56#p330856

[Monta]

[Replying to post 71 by JehovahsWitness]


"The spirit biblically is simply the force or power that animates us that comes from God, as the bible says its the same spirit or active force in an animal or a worm or a human. Humans don't have an invisible immortal soul, that's just pagan nonsense adopted by apostate christianity. A soul biblically is simply a sysnonym of person or animal (ie flesh and blood living breathing being). "

The beauty of not belonging to any organization is that you can think for yourself and upgrade as your information/knowledge develops.
To go along with the above post we'd have to reject the Scripture which says that God is a Spirit. Being a Creator and the Sustainer of the universe appears to be a big deal and all this from a 'Spirit'.
Genesis - 'and God breathed into his nostrils and man became a living soul'. This also has profound meaning therefore not 'just a pagan nonsense'.
Certainly all living forms have life from God and it is in accordance with their ability to receive, such as man or a tree.

[JP Cusick]

Yes even Satan the Devil get saved in the end, because God loves His enemies, see Matthew 5:43-48.

After Satan has no more power then Satan becomes harmless and so saving Satan does not have to include purifying Satan.

I can't believe what I am reading. Satan doesn't want to be saved. The source of all evil can't be saved.

It is God's will that all come to repentance, 2 Peter 3:9, and when it says "all" then it means "all", as in all people and all Demons and all Angels and all sinners, as in no one (1) being left out or lost.

And God's will - will be done - on earth as it is in Heaven.

It does not matter if any one wants to be saved or not because the will of God is not trapped by the wants of people nor the wants of spirits.

We all must learn to have mercy and forgiveness for everyone, and that includes for the Demons and for Satan too, and for the worst sinners of humanity.

God is not going to let you or anyone go into eternal life holding a grudge against the Devil.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 73 by JP Cusick]


"And God's will - will be done - on earth as it is in Heaven.

It does not matter if any one wants to be saved or not because the will of God is not trapped by the wants of people nor the wants of spirits.

We all must learn to have mercy and forgiveness for everyone, and that includes for the Demons and for Satan too, and for the worst sinners of humanity. "

Yes we are told to pray for the will of God to be done as we are co-creators with God.

The will of God desires what is best for man, but God has given a man free will without which man is not a man.
As for devils (evil) and satan (perversion of truth), there is nothing to forgive but change ways. As long as there is man on earth there shall be satan and the devil because some love it and live by it.

[JehovahsWitness]

The spirit biblically is simply the force or power that animates us that comes from God, as the bible says its the same spirit or active force in an animal or a worm or a human. Humans don't have an invisible immortal soul, that's just pagan nonsense adopted by apostate christianity. A soul biblically is simply a sysnonym of person or animal (ie flesh and blood living breathing being).



All human conscienceness ends at death. There is no "afterlife".

To go along with the above post we'd have to reject the Scripture which says that God is a Spirit.

Why would you come to that conclusion?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 74 by Monta]

Genesis - 'and God breathed into his nostrils and man became a living soul'. This also has profound meaning therefore not 'just a pagan nonsense'..

No the belief that man has an invisible immortal soul that escapes his physical body at death and continues consciouse existence as the person is pagan nonsense. What Genesis says is absolutely true, Adam became a living soul, he was NOT given one.

To illustrate if you read: The man studied and became a doctor" does that mean that the man was given an invisible doctor inside him and when he (the man) dies the doctor escapes his body and continues practising medicine elsewhere? Or rather is the expresion "The man became a (living) doctor" another way of describing the man himself - what he *is* not what he has or posses. When the man dies, the doctor dies for they are one and the same.

In a similar way "Adam (the man) became a living soul means that is what Adam was, it was not what he possessed inside him. The words "immortal" and "soul" appear nowhere in the bible together.

JW


Further reading
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... -immortal/

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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 80#p888980

Is the "soul" immortal?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 09#p832209

What happens at death?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 56#p330856

If man does not posses an "immortal soul" and ceases to exist at death, is there a HOPE for the dead?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 13#p832213

To learn more please go to other posts related to...

BIBLE "HELL", SOULS and ... THE CONDITION OF THE DEAD

[William]

[Replying to post 76 by JehovahsWitness]

Monta wrote:
Genesis - 'and God breathed into his nostrils and man became a living soul'. This also has profound meaning therefore not 'just a pagan nonsense'..

No the belief that man has an invisible immortal soul that escapes his physical body at death and continues consciouse existence as the person is pagan nonsense. What Genesis says is absolutely true, Adam became a living soul, he was NOT given one.

The story is pretty obvious really. The form was lifeless. In this case 'Adam' is identified as the lifeless form - the cadaver. - or is he?

Looking closer, there is no need for an entity creating a vessel with the intent of placing life into that vessel, to name the lifeless vessel. It would be more practical to name the living vessel.

Or the name of the lifeless vessel could be called a 'body' and the name of the life breathed into it, could be called something else.

In that, the entity breathed something of its self into the form and in doing so the form became alive, and since the entity is regarded as being eternal, then that which was a part of the entity which made the cadaver alive, that must also be eternal.

The breath of the eternal entity gave life to the form. That which represents the 'breath' must be the thing which experiences. The body is that which is used - in this case - as the vessel in which to experience through.

Adam, in this sense, is the aspect of the entity breathed into the form, not the form itself.

The form allows for an individual experience. The aspect of the entity 'breath' is that which has the experience.

[ttruscott]

Yes even Satan the Devil get saved in the end, because God loves His enemies, see Matthew 5:43-48.

Matt 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

GOD is LOVE and so HE treats everyone in the most loving manner HE is able to give while (at the same time) in HIS heart HE abhors the wicked and hates them exceedingly: Psalm 11:5 The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked, those who love violence, he hates with a passion.

Psalm 5:5 The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity.

HE hates those HE must condemn but HE treats them as well as love can treat them until the time for judgement.

That is misusing the old testament to define the new testament - which is doing it backward.

Christian exegesis demands that the New Testament conform to the doctrines of the Old... there are no contradictions between them even in the new revelations. Your new revelation cannot be accepted as it is not based upon the revelation of the full Bible.

[ttruscott]

He could have made people worthy, and he could have made the world nice, but, in Jehovah's messed-up mind, that wouldn't glorify him.

If people were worthy, and saving them was easy, and if they didn't even need saving in the first place, how would that glorify god?

Is this about some pagan religion? This statement has nothing to do with Christianity at all but is apparently made up to look like Christian sentiment but misses the mark so badly it is tantamount to irrationality:

1. GOD did make every person in HIS image worthy and able to become HIS Bride if THEY wanted to be HIS Bride. If not, they could (and some did) go their own way.

2. The elect became worth of salvation by putting their faith, their unproven hope, in HIM as their GOD and in HIS Son as their promised saviour from any and all future sin, by their own free will before they ever become sinful.

3. Once sinners, the elect who chose sin were not worthy of HIM any longer but HE did not discard them at that time like HE did the reprobate who put their faith in the idea that HE was a lying false god, but to HIS GLORY fulfilled in them HIS promise of salvation by dying on the cross.

[JP Cusick]

Christian exegesis demands that the New Testament conform to the doctrines of the Old... there are no contradictions between them even in the new revelations. Your new revelation cannot be accepted as it is not based upon the revelation of the full Bible.

The distinction is just between physical and spiritual.

The old testament is more physical, while the new testament is more spiritual.

God hates the evils that people do here in this physical world, just as God was against Adolf Hitler, but later in the spiritual world then God saved all sinners based of the sacrifice of Christ.

See Galatians 6:
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
-

The entire Bible is based on this = that humanity is lost in the old testament - then comes the new testament where every person gets saved.