Willum's crack-pot premise #127: Syria

[Willum]

The word/people/nation/name/angel "Israel," has perplexed me for some time, and I know there is a brain or two on this site that can assist in unraveling the mystery.

So, premise #1 is that Israel does not mean what it is supposed to mean in Hebrew. I can look that one up, and it is dismissed for purposes of this OP.

Assuming that it has an uncover-able meaning, just as Michael means "God of Mecca," Aeriel is the "God of Summer," and Uriel is simple the "God of Ur."

I'd like you to examine Israel. The obvious interpretation is the God (or angel) or Isr.

But what is Isr?

Here is what I think:
All these names were first referenced about the same time: 1000 BC, around the time of the Assyrian Empire.
Also monotheism was first popular, the worship of a form of Zeus, in modern day Syria.

Finally, Assyria, or Syria, both of these are close enough phonetically to Israel (remember vowels were non-standard 3000 years ago,) to perhaps mean that Israel is Assyriel or Syriel.

So the question is, are the Israelites actually taking their name from Syria/Assyria?

Can a stronger premise be researched? or refuted?

I appreciate your consideration, research or research recommendations in the matter.

[CSMM]

[Replying to post 8 by Willum]

From the original of Deuteronomy 32 in the DSS and LXX,you have YHWH inheriting Jacob from Elyon, a title for EL. Philo of Alexandrian philosophy has Wisdom giving birth to the world after she was created first by the Father. We know from the Ugaritic material the Father was EL, and Lord or Baal was a son.

Deuteronomy 32 has the nations divided by the number of sons of God. That would be 70 plus two from the Ugaritic material. The OT has 70 nations.

Israel and Judah were the 2. Genesis 1 shows man was created male and female which is the image of ELohim. EL the Father and Shaddai the breasted side who was fruitful and gave fruitrulness. Shaddai was used for a blessing of Joseph in Gen 49, of the breasts and womb, and in the Samaritan pentateuch from the father and mother. The Northern tribes followed the Mother. Judah followed the son YHWH who they pictured a war god or storm god like Baal.

[CSMM]

[Replying to post 9 by bjs]

El means God, but it is also the real name of the Father. YHWH or YHVH was the son the Midians followed, who was later claimed to have inherited Israel. He was also the god of Shasu bedowins.

[CSMM]

[Replying to post 9 by bjs]


More likely the y was added, since Judah was against having the other half of the Elohim as Asherah. They also didn't like the golden calf which made the god a son, and also would represent the Mother.

[CSMM]

[Replying to post 10 by JP Cusick]

Try mother Father. EL was known in that area as the Father of the Gods, and Asherah the Mother.

[JP Cusick]

And I agree that the name Israel does not mean as so popularly given as = He who wrestles with God, or "who prevails with God", or some other version of the same.

Out of curiosity, why?

The prefix “yi� normally means that the word is third person, masculine, and singular. Should we no longer follow this basic rule of Hebrew grammar?

The long and the short of my question is this: Is there a reason that in this specific case you think we should ignore all the normal rules of Hebrew grammar and definitions to come up with an entirely new definition for the word?

The name is translated as "He who wrestles with God" based on the text (the context) and that puts the interpretation into severe doubt.

And the basic rule of Hebrew grammar was based accordingly.

As you might know - there are two (2) different stories about Jacob getting the new name of Israel, and the first one is based on Jacob wrestling with God, Genesis 32:24-30, but the very next reference has nothing to do with wrestling, Genesis 35:9-14.

That is the point.

Yi as in Yisrael could also be translated as "son" or as "prince" as in "Son of God" or as the Prince of God, but once we loose the word "wrestle" then the old standard interpretations fall apart.

For me it does not much matter what that word means, and especially since the Prophesy declares that the birthright people would be called after the name of Isaac, as in Saxon (Issac-sons), see Genesis 21:
12 And God said unto Abraham, ... for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.

Do you think that we should stop translating “sarah� (pronounced saw-rah) as “to contend, strive or wrestle�?

I have no idea about that name.

Wiki says Sarah means princess.

Should the suffix “el� no longer be translated as “God�?

Yes El is still God.

But the word "God" is not an accurate translation of El.

And Elohim means plural Gods.

[JP Cusick]

[Replying to post 10 by JP Cusick]

Try mother Father. EL was known in that area as the Father of the Gods, and Asherah the Mother.

I do not buy into that.

Even though it is similar to the Egyptian interpretation as the mother Goddess Isis (Is) and the sun God Ra (ra) along with the Canaanite God El, and joining those 3 together into the one name.

More likely Is-ra-el means Isis - Ra - Elohim, as in = mother-father-children.

Just a name as "Mother-Father" would be incomplete.

[Willum]

The only thing we know for sure is that the modern Hebrew translation of 'Israel' is a corruption of the original meaning.

We do know, though it may not be related, that the people who became to day's Jews has Ashereth as a wife, and considerable effort was taken to remove this from not only the Bible, but history.

We find the saga changed to "children of Zion," or, more perplexingly, "daughter of Zion." Zion seems to come from nowhere...

JP your argument is a good one, Israel does never refer to Yahweh, which, in the eyes of the forum, I feel safe to say, Yahwey mythology, is illogical. He should be the father...

However, the Ashereth, becoming Asherel, can just as easily mean god from Ashereth, or her daughter. Perhaps that is the meaning associated with the 'I.'

This has amazing implications, which I think all will agree, except bjs, means that the people of Israel began with a woman and not Jacob.

Which is where Sarah comes into play, as CSMM remarked... Asherah, is a good transliteration of Sarah, without stretching it. Which makes the grandfather of the people who would become Jewish, Abraham and Yahweh. Which, also makes sense.

This transformation of the myth from Yahweh to Abraham also is about the same time that the lives of the people of the Bible become human life-spans.

This solves ANOTHER Biblical mystery, why people lived longer. Adam through Abraham have extraordinary long lives, making us reconsider that Adam was not the first man, but a lesser divinity, something like a titan, in the spirit of Greek tradition. And puts a dividing line in the Bible between man and myth that makes far too much sense to be ignored. Which also makes it consistent with other myth.

Consider the tale of Pandora (Eve) and Epimetheus (Adam) - neither of them were gods, Pandora's box would be analogous to the apple...

It also allows Yahweh to be an immortal, instead of a titan, by making him distinct from Abraham.

Israel the mother of the people who would become Jewish, and why matrilineality is the mythical norm of Judaism.

Amazing what we discover when we ask a simple question about the origin, the non-Hebrew origin, of the word Israel. I- sarah- el. goddess from Sarah, or daughter of Ashereth, whom diligence was done to remove from Bible and history.

Did I miss anything - I am sure I did.

[1213]

...So the question is, are the Israelites actually taking their name from Syria/Assyria?

Interesting word play you have. But, what should I rather believe, the definition Bible gives, or the definition that word players give? The problem with the word play is: I could for example take the word “question� from your text and say “you probably mean queue station, which is same as line up in a place�. Now, it sounds very odd, why would you say line up in station. Perhaps you are a station guard. It all makes perfect sense, don’t you think? But it can easily be so far for the truth that it is only a dot to you. I think it is more reasonable to remain in the definition Bible gives, because when we make own meanings for the words, there is no limits in that and in that case, it is very probable that we get lost in translation.

And in addition, what if the name Syria, or Assyria comes really from Israel?

[JP Cusick]

Pandora's box would be analogous to the apple...

I would not say "apple" as I would say the box is analogous with the poisoned knowledge - so other than the wording - I totally agree.

Long ago scholars saw that the Greek myths and the Titans fit very well into the stories of the Bible in the beginning of humanity, particularly where it says about "giants in the earth" and the "sons of God" of Genesis 6:1-8, but that was far back when scholars believed in God and were not secular as they are today.

I agree that the similar connections of the different religions are indeed connected.

And see verse 3 as that is where God changed the long life of people down to 120 years maximum.



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I think it is more reasonable to remain in the definition Bible gives, ...

And in addition, what if the name Syria, or Assyria comes really from Israel?

The Bible very seldom ever gives us any definition of its words.

However - that is an excellent point that Syria and or Assyria could come from the word Israel?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 19 by JP Cusick]

What's amazing to me is that a simple quest for the meaning of a name, "Israel," reveals so much of history and myth buried and destroyed in an effort to validate some other version.

The name showed the break between titan and man, right where it needed to be.
It revealed the matrilineal origin.
Whose children the children of Israel really are: The children of the daughter of Sarah or Asherah.
The connection between Yahweh and Abraham is explained.

Most importantly, it reveals that Judaism is a myth like all the others.

Now you understand why the names were changed...

They were the children of the daughter of Asherah, therefore let them be called Israel.