Questions: The first born of all creation?

[polonius]

And he is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation (Colossians 1:15).

Questions:

(1) How can someone be the image of something invisible?

(2) If something is the "firstborn" there would have had to be a time when it did not yet exist, wouldn't there?

[JehovahsWitness]

(Isaiah 44.24)

http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 008#864008
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 001#864001
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 015#864015

Further
http://searchforbibletruths.blogspot.fr ... -said.html

"Jehovah alone is the Savior" (43.11)

(by tigger2)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 983#782983

[JehovahsWitness]

In Deuteronomy 5:6 Moses was to tell God's people, "I am Jehovah thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." Wow! Just totally blew off Moses didn't he? He didn't say look what me and Moses did. He gave zero credit to Moses for bringing the Hebrews from out of Egypt. I don't know if there is even one slice of credit given to Moses as having done anything except, obeying. So because Jehovah didn't mention Moses or give him any credit in this speech does that mean that Moses wasn't there, leading the Hebrews out of Egypt?

Nice point tim; it illustrates well the difference between speaking in the absolute and the relative. Jehovah being the ultimate source of all salvation is "alone" in his position but this doesn not mean he never uses instruments or agents to achieve his ends. One can eat alone in a restaurant full of people ...


JW

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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 013#864013

Does the bible indicate Jehovah collaborated with Jesus during creation?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 013#864013

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 20 by Elijah John]

ISAIAH 45:5
I am the LORD, and there is no other, besides me there is no God - ESV
EXODUS 23:33
If you worship their gods, it will become a snare for you."

QUESTION: Since the bible both refers to pagan gods and says there is no God besides YHWH (Jehovah) is this a contradiction?

No, "no other" is highlighting that Jehovah is "alone" in his position as the True God and the one personage that holds the position of supreme ruler of the universe (compare John 17:3). The expression "there is no other [God]" should be understood in its relative sense (ie no other god that compares to Him) rather than no other gods exist - compare 1 Cor 8:5


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 20 by Elijah John]


QUESTION: Why do Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus collaborated with God as a "Masterworker" in Creation?

Jehovah's Witnesses believe only JEHOVAH (YHWH) can rightly be referred to as our Creator, because he alone is the source of all life and the only uncreated being. That said, we believe Jesus was God's first creation and together they collaborated (worked together) in the creation of all things.

Jehovah's Witnesses apply the following bible passages to Jesus Christ:

COLOSSIANS 1:15, 16
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All other things have been created through him and for him.

GENESIS 1:26
God said: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness

PROVERBS 8:30, 31
I was beside him as a master worker. I was the one he was especially fond of day by day; I rejoiced before him all the time; I rejoiced over his habitable earth, And I was especially fond of the sons of men.

The book "Come be my follower" (published by Jehovah's Witnesses) puts it this way...

" Jehovah, the Creator, worked through his Son, the Master Worker, to bring every other creation into existence—from the spirit creatures in the heavenly realm to the immense physical universe, to the earth with its wondrous variety of plant and animal life, to the pinnacle of earthly creation: humankind. In some respects, we might liken this cooperation between Father and Son to that of an architect working with a builder, or contractor, who specializes in bringing the architect’s ingenious designs to reality. When we are awed by any facet of creation, we are actually giving credit to the Great Architect. (Psalm 19:1) However, we may also call to mind the long and happy collaboration between the Creator and his “master worker.�" - cf chap 13 p. 131 par 8
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102007056#h=11

[polonius]

[quote="JehovahsWitness"]
[Replying to post 20 by Elijah John]


QUESTION: Why do Jehovah's Witnesses believe Jesus collaborated with God as a "Masterworker" in Creation?

Jehovah's Witnesses believe only JEHOVAH (YHWH) can rightly be referred to as our Creator, because he alone is the source of all life and the only uncreated being. That said, we believe Jesus was God's first creation and together they collaborated (worked together) in the creation of all things.

RESPONSE: Then do Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus was not eternal
(was a creation himself) and that Paul was in error when he wrote clearly that:

“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.�—Colossians 1:15–16 ?

And if one maintains that Jesus himself was a created being and "by him all things were created", Jesus is a self-made entity?

JW thinking seems a little fuzzy here.

[JehovahsWitness]

RESPONSE: Then do Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus was not eternal (was a creation himself)

This is correct

Paul ... wrote clearly that:

“He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Alternatively "firstborn**OF** all creation": Most bible read the "the first[born] of all creation", we take this to mean that Jesus was the first thing God created.

JW

COLOSSIANS 1:15

English Standard Version
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

New American Standard Bible
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

King James Bible
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
He who is the image of The Unseen God and is The Firstborn of all creation.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

New American Standard 1977
And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation.

Jubilee Bible 2000
who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature;

King James 2000 Bible
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation:

American King James Version
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

American Standard Version
who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

Douay-Rheims Bible
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Darby Bible Translation
who is image of the invisible God, firstborn of all creation;

English Revised Version
who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;

Webster's Bible Translation
Who is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of every creature:

World English Bible
who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

Young's Literal Translation
who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,

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[JehovahsWitness]

Naturally, the "all things" is not absolute (ie it cannot refer to "all things" that exist since that understanding would mean Jesus created YHWH). Reasonably then the "all things" refers to all things that exist with exceptions, namely of the Creator Himself and the Creator's means or agent of creation (Jesus/The Word).

Further reading: all (other) things
http://jehovah.to/xlation/other.html

[Elijah John]

I have to say here, that I think JWs do have the correct reading of Paul in this case. My issue is that Paul has no grounding for his doctrine. None from his own Bible, the Hebrew Bible "Old" Testament.

Except maybe for Proverbs, where "Wisdom" is personified as the Agent of God's Creation. But she is personified there as female, some call her "Sophia".

From the female Sophia to the male Jesus, from Wisdom to the pre-existing Word? Perhaps, but it seems a stretch to me.

I think the argument is that God first created the agent Jesus, then through Jesus he created everything else. But I just don't see any strong evidence for that, outside of John's prologue/Gospel, and Paul's correspondence.

[tigger2]

I have to say here, that I think JWs do have the correct reading of Paul in this case. My issue is that Paul has no grounding for his doctrine. None from his own Bible, the Hebrew Bible "Old" Testament.

Except maybe for Proverbs, where "Wisdom" is personified as the Agent of God's Creation. But she is personified there as female, some call her "Sophia".

From the female Sophia to the male Jesus, from Wisdom to the pre-existing Word? Perhaps, but it seems a stretch to me.

.....................................

The understanding that “Wisdom� in these verses in Prov. 8 is, in reality, figurative of Jesus in his pre-human existence has always existed in the majority of churches that call themselves Christian. It was commonly noted in the writings of the Church Fathers of the first centuries of Christianity (including such noted scholars as Origen, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian, etc.) Many Bible scholars (trinitarians included) have even said that this connection was made in the New Testament at 1 Cor. 1:24.

For example, trinitarian scholar Edmund Fortman writes:
“Paul applied it [Prov. 8:22-30] to the Son of God. The Apologists [Christian writers of the 2nd and 3rd centuries] used it to prove to Gentile and Jew the pre-existence of the Word and his role in creation.� - (See quotes from the writings of Irenaeus, Origen, Tertullian, Clement of Alexandria, and Justin Martyr which equate the Son with “Wisdom� speaking at Prov. 8:22-30 and admit that he had been created by God as the beginning of God’s works - Prov. 8:22.)

We even find the trinitarian New Bible Dictionary, 1982, p. 1257, saying:
“it is not unexpected that Paul would view Jesus ... as the Wisdom of God. That Paul saw in Christ the fulfilment of Pr. 8:22 ff. seems apparent from Col. 1:15 ff., which strongly reflects the OT description of wisdom.�

The very trinitarian The Ante-Nicene Fathers admits:

Prov. viii 22-25. This is one of the favourite Messianic quotations of the Fathers, and is considered as the base of the first chapter of St. John’s Gospel. - ANF 1:488, f.n. #10, Eerdmans, 1993 reprint.

Why, even at the Council of Nicaea in 325 A. D. Arius quoted this passage as proof that Jesus was not equally God:

“[Arius] had a sharply logical mind and appealed to biblical texts which apparently backed up his arguments - for example, John 17:3....and Proverbs 8:22.� - p. 157 (165), Eerdman’s Handbook to the History of Christianity, 1977.

And his trinitarian opponent, Athanasius, although sometimes also attempting to appeal to scripture, never refuted this usage of Proverbs 8:22 -
“Athanasius....did not refute Arius by rejecting the relevance of Prov. 8:22.� (Even though he attempted to show that Jesus had not been created by quoting Ps. 110:3.) - p. 165 (173), Eerdman’s Handbook.

In other words, when Arius quoted Proverbs 8:22 and applied it to Jesus, trinitarian Athanasius didn’t dispute that application! Even Athanasius recognized that Wisdom in that scripture was intended to describe the Messiah!

.......................................
As for 'wisdom' being a word in the feminine gender:

Any student of foreign languages knows that many (if not most) of them apply gender to nouns. In Spanish, for instance, “table� (la mesa) is a feminine noun. “Hat� (el sombrero) is a masculine noun. Other non-personal nouns are also assigned masculine, feminine, or neuter gender.

It is the same in biblical Hebrew and Greek. In Greek (as in Hebrew) “wisdom� just happens to have a feminine gender. Notice how it is used at 1 Cor. 1:24: Jesus is the wisdom (feminine) of God! Jesus himself says: “I am the resurrection (feminine) and the life (feminine).� - John 11:25, and “I am the door (feminine).� - Jn 10:9. Also examine Rev. 5:6 - 6:16 where John repeatedly calls Jesus “the Lamb.� “The Lamb� is neuter here, but, since Jesus had to be a perfect, unblemished sacrifice for us, we know absolutely that he could not have suffered a terrible accident during his circumcision!

In short, when a Bible writer figuratively applies a term to a person, he is stuck with whatever gender that term happens to have.

[Royston]

[Replying to post 1 by polonius.advice]

(1) How can someone be the image of something invisible?

If we define 'image' as a representation of the external form, then to we humans the idea of perceiving the image of something that is invisible makes for the stuff of gobbledegook.

(2) If something is the "firstborn" there would have had to be a time when it did not yet exist, wouldn't there?

Quite. And then-again, so-called 'creation' evidently pre-existed its firstborn - so a telling question might be what is 'creation'? In such instances, one routinely faces a question of the chicken-or-egg-scenario, a satisfactory answer to which our best minds have [as of yet] proved incapable of fathoming. Point is, various religious texts aren't found wanting for mind-muddling riddles, and perhaps they're there via human design rather than divine input. Keep 'em guessing, eh?