Jehovah's Witnesses and 1914

[Justin108]

They now insist that Jesus did return but he is invisible.

If so, how would they know he has returned?

If you are refering to JEHOVAH'S WITNESSES we believe know because of the signs Jesus provided to identify the time (see Mat 24, Lk 21, Mk 14) and we believe it started in 1914 because of our interpretation of bible chronology (see link below).

Learn more
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... -prophecy/


JW

1. What exactly happened in 1914 that points to Matthew 24, Luke 21 and Mark 14?

2. Was 1914 unique in this regard? For example, Luke 21 mentions "wars and uprisings". In what way is 1914 unique in terms of wars and uprisings?

3. According to (my understanding of) Jehovah's Witnesses' claims, Jesus' rule from 1914 is hidden and behind the scenes. His rule is invisible to most of us. Did Jehovah's Witnesses predict that Jesus' rule would be behind the scenes from the start? Or did they initially believe that Jesus' rule will be clearly apparent to everyone, and only after 1914 when no Jesus was to be found did they change their conclusion to "well Jesus must be doing it in heaven where no one can see"?

4. Do you consider the possibility that your interpretation might be wrong and that Jesus did not return in 1914? Or do you believe that it is an indisputable fact that Jesus returned in 1914?

[polonius]

JW posted:

Yes, Jehovah's Witnesses believe the bible is a mixture of statments that can be taken literally and statements that are to be taken metaphorically (or viewed as paraboles , illustrations or symbols)

QUESTION: Does each JW member get to decide for themselves which is which?

Who else could? Short of MK Ultra Mind control I can't see how anyone else can decide what another chooses to believe.

RESPONSE: So a JW member can believe in the existence of the Trinity? And that Jesus was divine?

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 23 by Elijah John]

Yes I suppose you are right, that is a possibility. Many do hold that view, I didnt want to give the impression that there weren't such people with such views.

Thanks for pointing that out, I should have been clearer,

JW

Do you acknowledge that the process of an unfolding, and evolving understanding of these things is recorded in the Bible itself? As in the examples of the following:

-From the Hebrew idea of Sheol, to the Christian idea of Heaven and hell?
-From the henotheism and monalatry of Moses to the pure and absolute Monotheism of Isaiah?

And I see the process as well in the evolution from Mosaic blood-atonement to pure and simple repentance, as taught by the Prophets, the Baptist, and Jesus himself. But I realize we disagree on this one.

As for Satan's visits to Heaven, do you discount the probability that the understanding of his role has changed, from the time of the writing of Job to New Testament times, from God's "prosecuting attorney" and servant, to the personification of pure evil?

In sum, do you see the Bible as static, or as having recorded evolving theologies?

[JehovahsWitness]

Do you acknowledge that the process of an unfolding, and evolving understanding of these things is recorded in the Bible itself?

Do you mean an idea might not be mentioned at all in the Hebrew scriptures but that God could later reveal something "new" later to be recorded in the Christian scriptures?

Is that what you mean?


As in someone might ask "If this is true why did God not mention it to Moses or why is there no mention of it to the prophets?" and the right answer would be "Even though there is no notion of it in the Hebrew bible, God was later to reveal it through Jesus and the Christian writers as part of an " evolving understanding of these things"

Is that what you mean by "not static"? Is THAT what you are proposing?


Do clarify and I will bookmark your response for further reference.


JW

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 18 by JehovahsWitness]

Further, as organizations (especially religious ones) grow they tend to break apart into regional groups with their own cultural or regional particularities; this is what happened to apostate Christianity. That same expansion tends to produce prominent personalities that in turn tend to reject centralization. The sustained global unity of the message of Jehovah's Witnesses is another feature that gives evidence of divine backing.

If you mean that all who call themselves Jehovah's Witnesses all say the same thing...then you are wrong.
Either you are lying or you are completely ignorant of the existence of JW splinter groups.
I have a copy of the 2006 Yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses. If you yourself have a copy, go to page 116, where it mentions that Romanian JWs, existing in a country cut off from communications with the Watchtower due to the Communist regime, did not hear what the Watchtower declared the 'superior authorities' mentioned in Romans 13 to be (human governments, and not God, was the declaration). The Romanian JWs distrusted this, because in their minds, it was a sneak attempt to promote subservience to the Communists who were badly mistreating them.
In 1992, some Romanian JWs formed their own group, called the True Faith Jehovah's Witnesses Association. They thought that after 1962, the Watchtower had lost their way, had corrupted Jehovah God's teachings.

I see that JW has yet to respond to the counter-point I raised here. This is similar behaviour to when he listed some prophecies that Jesus supposedly fulfilled.

[Justin108]

[Replying to post 18 by JehovahsWitness]

Further, as organizations (especially religious ones) grow they tend to break apart into regional groups with their own cultural or regional particularities; this is what happened to apostate Christianity. That same expansion tends to produce prominent personalities that in turn tend to reject centralization. The sustained global unity of the message of Jehovah's Witnesses is another feature that gives evidence of divine backing.

If you mean that all who call themselves Jehovah's Witnesses all say the same thing...then you are wrong.
Either you are lying or you are completely ignorant of the existence of JW splinter groups.
I have a copy of the 2006 Yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses. If you yourself have a copy, go to page 116, where it mentions that Romanian JWs, existing in a country cut off from communications with the Watchtower due to the Communist regime, did not hear what the Watchtower declared the 'superior authorities' mentioned in Romans 13 to be (human governments, and not God, was the declaration). The Romanian JWs distrusted this, because in their minds, it was a sneak attempt to promote subservience to the Communists who were badly mistreating them.
In 1992, some Romanian JWs formed their own group, called the True Faith Jehovah's Witnesses Association. They thought that after 1962, the Watchtower had lost their way, had corrupted Jehovah God's teachings.

I see that JW has yet to respond to the counter-point I raised here. This is similar behaviour to when he listed some prophecies that Jesus supposedly fulfilled.

This seems to be protocol for Jehovah's Witnesses. JW regularly outright ignores the majority of my rebuttals. I have come across numerous door-to-door Jehovah's Witnesses who are eager to preach but make a run for it the moment you start asking hard questions. Perhaps this is part of their faith? I do so wish to learn more about other religions

[JehovahsWitness]

Also, refresh my memory. Who is King, Jesus or Jehovah? Judging by the Lord's prayer, Jesus seems to have thought it was Jehovah, not himself".

Both.

Jehovah is the King of eternity and supreme ruler of the universe. Jesus has been appointed king of the Messianic kingdom and designated ruler of the Christian congregation. Everything ultimately belongs to Jehovah no matter who is representing Him (Jehovah), which is why we speak of God's Kingdom in this way.

JW

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 36 by JehovahsWitness]

There are a lot more kings. Lets not forget the 144,000 other kings as well. Rev 5:10. But it even says they are 'made to be a kingdom and priests to our God'. As you said JW they are kings but they all answer to Jehovah. Everyone will.

[Elijah John]

Also, refresh my memory. Who is King, Jesus or Jehovah? Judging by the Lord's prayer, Jesus seems to have thought it was Jehovah, not himself".

Both.

Jehovah is the King of eternity and supreme ruler of the universe. Jesus has been appointed king of the Messianic kingdom and designated ruler of the Christian congregation. Everything ultimately belongs to Jehovah no matter who is representing Him (Jehovah), which is why we speak of God's Kingdom in this way.

JW

If we are using the metaphor of monarchy, in the real world there has been but one King per Kingdom.

Where there are two, there has been competition, strife, intrigue, revolution and warfare.

YHVH is not into power-sharing, if the prophet Isaiah is to be believed.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 18 by JehovahsWitness]

Further, as organizations (especially religious ones) grow they tend to break apart into regional groups with their own cultural or regional particularities; this is what happened to apostate Christianity. That same expansion tends to produce prominent personalities that in turn tend to reject centralization. The sustained global unity of the message of Jehovah's Witnesses is another feature that gives evidence of divine backing.

If you mean that all who call themselves Jehovah's Witnesses all say the same thing...then you are wrong.
Either you are lying or you are completely ignorant of the existence of JW splinter groups.
I have a copy of the 2006 Yearbook of Jehovah's Witnesses. If you yourself have a copy, go to page 116, where it mentions that Romanian JWs, existing in a country cut off from communications with the Watchtower due to the Communist regime, did not hear what the Watchtower declared the 'superior authorities' mentioned in Romans 13 to be (human governments, and not God, was the declaration). The Romanian JWs distrusted this, because in their minds, it was a sneak attempt to promote subservience to the Communists who were badly mistreating them.
In 1992, some Romanian JWs formed their own group, called the True Faith Jehovah's Witnesses Association. They thought that after 1962, the Watchtower had lost their way, had corrupted Jehovah God's teachings.

I see that JW has yet to respond to the counter-point I raised here. This is similar behaviour to when he listed some prophecies that Jesus supposedly fulfilled.

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[JehovahsWitness]

YHVH is not into power-sharing [...]

Really?

PSALMS 2: 4-8
Jehovah will scoff at them. At that time he will speak to them in his anger and terrify them in his burning anger, Saying: “I myself have installed my king on Zion, my holy mountain.� Let me proclaim the decree of Jehovah;He said to me: “You are my son; Today I have become your father. Ask of me, and I will give nations as your inheritance And the ends of the earth as your possession.

DANIEL 7:13-14
Look! with the clouds of the heavens, someone like a son of man was coming; and he gained access to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him up close before that One. And to him there were given rulership, honor, and a kingdom, that the peoples, nations, and language groups should all serve him. His rulership is an everlasting rulership that will not pass away, and his kingdom will not be destroyed.