No-MiddleMan Movement

[safdar.dushantappeh]

I am interested to know what is the position of each faith towards NMMM manifesto:
https://www.facebook.com/nmmm.org/posts ... 71902102:0

Earth is, as always, full of non-religions in which some middlemen claim to know what the Creator wants, and ask us to blindly follow them, and them exclusively, or otherwise we will be burnt in the hellfire. The fear of fire, the peer pressure, accompanied with the indoctrination from birth lead us to the convenient trap of following one of these middlemen instead of the more challenging lifestyle of responsibly and continuously searching for good deeds and doing them.

The middleman phenomenon takes different forms:
- Sometimes it is a "knowledgeable" Imam/Rabbi/Scholar who knows about religion some "complicated" things that we "ordinary people" do not know, and hence urge us to obey his Fatwa/Rule/Sharia.
- Sometimes it is a priest that provides a particular interpretation of the holy books and urge us to trust their view.
- Sometimes it is a church, mosque, or religious school that tells to take a text as sacred and assume that it is letter by letter a direct revelation from the creator.
- Sometimes it is a "spiritual" leader/Pope/Guru who is supposedly "closer" to the creator and thus can "see" what is right and what is wrong, and urge us to follow his vision.

The middlemen have pretty established positions in their societies and through the many years they have produced a bulk of literature to justify their existence and silence the curious minds. In fact many followers feel "educated" after reading such literature. They are so good at what they do, to the extent that many followers do not even realize that they are obeying a middleman. It is not thus uncommon to hear:
- a Christian saying that I am not following any religion; I am just following Jesus! And yet their very understanding of Jesus and Bible is pretty much shaped by a major church/religious organization.
- a Muslim saying that I am not blindly obeying Imams; I rather only consider their advice that is formed based on the book and the Hadith! And yet their interpretation of the book as well as which Hadith is authentic or relevant is pretty much shaped by a major doctrine (Madhab).

We believe that the world has an intelligent creator; one need not to abandon reason to live as a believer; life is a continuous, reasonable search for truth, which should lead to doing beautiful deeds; but no exclusive doctrine can claim the "right" path towards this. These are the middlemen who always come up with something very specific in their doctrine and introduce it as the "secret sauce" for salvation, to color their followers differently and to establish a "us vs. them" mindset. In whatever community that we are born in, and whatever our starting point is, we are more likely to end up with righteous deeds if we do not let our minds to be indoctrinated by middlemen.

The mission of No-MiddleMan Movement is to coordinate a community effort to identify the middlemen in each of our religions, trace their influence on the ideology, and help our fellow believers to purify their religious views and free themselves from the indoctrination that they are born into. We invite each of the readers to share with us and other readers the influence of middleman that they observe in their local community. All the contributed posts will be accessible to public. The editors further select some contributed articles and maintain an organized summary for impatient readers. Feel free to reach us if you want to also contribute as an editor.

Start now by writing a post on https://fb.com/nmmm.org page and sharing a story/view/article/observation of middleman traces in your community, and help your fellow believer in search of righteousness.

FAQ

Q1: Is not NMMM itself yet another middleman?
A1: No. At no point one needs to trust NMMM or anyone else. If you find yourself agreed with the beliefs mentioned above, then you can participate in the movement by presenting rational arguments and help your fellow believers in search for the truth. You would read the rational arguments, discuss it, challenge it, and then decide for yourself.

Q2: Is NMMM rejecting the absolute truth?
A2: No. The manifesto never rejected the absolute truth; it rather pointed out the common sense observation that each of our ideologies is "at its best" an interpretation of the truth. It is more convenient to call the ideology that we are born into the absolute truth and enjoy the support from the like-minded neighbors. It is however much more difficult to admit that that there are many obstacles (least of them all the language) that distort our understanding of any phenomenon (most of them all the truth) and life should be a continuous search for improving this understanding. (The answer contributed by Safdar DushanTappeh)

Q3: Is NMMM claiming its own truth while being critical of what others consider the truth?
A3: Any movement is about people who share the same beliefs and the same concerns. NMMM Manifesto has mentioned a few basic common sense observations as its core beliefs (intelligent creator, reasonable life, continuous search for truth and good deeds, and religious pluralism). It does not provide any rationale for these nor it tries to convince anyone that they are true. It rather invites people who "already" find them rational by their common sense to join the movement and help us, the fellow believers, in the eternal search for the truth.

Q4: What is your proof for the intelligent creator?
A4: Refer to A3. If you are an atheist then you are not the target audience of NMMM.

[Divine Insight]

We believe that the world has an intelligent creator; one need not to abandon reason to live as a believer; life is a continuous, reasonable search for truth, which should lead to doing beautiful deeds; but no exclusive doctrine can claim the "right" path towards this. These are the middlemen who always come up with something very specific in their doctrine and introduce it as the "secret sauce" for salvation, to color their followers differently and to establish a "us vs. them" mindset.

How is the above not already a very specialized religious position?

Christianity necessarily has a "middleman" in Christ. In Christianity Christ is the one who claim to be the only "right path".

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

In Christianity Jesus is the one who is teaching an "us vs. them" mindset. It's part and parcel to the religion. Christians don't have the freedom to think as you have suggested above. According to Jesus there is only one "right path" and that is through him.

And for those who don't like the idea of Jesus being seen as a "middleman", then we could simply say that the authors of the New Testament such as Mark, Matthew, Luke, John and Paul are the "middlemen" who claim to speak on behalf of Jesus.

But no matter how we look at this, Christianity does not allow that there can be a "right path" apart from the teachings of Jesus.

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I would suggest that Islam takes a similar position with Muhammad being the "middleman" for Allah, and the Qur'an being the infallible instructions for the "right path".

~~~~~~

I can see where one could argue that there are many different theological views on these religions and look at those mortal theologians as being "middlemen" trying to get people to support their specific interpretations of various Holy Books. However, that is already one-step-removed from the actual religions that have already proclaimed that there is only one "right path".

~~~~~~

I do believe that modern day Jews seem to be quite flexible in terms of allowing that there can be multiple paths to "God". However their original texts make it clear that the God of their ancient folklore is a jealous God who has commanded that "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me."

That's already an "us vs. them" attitude proclaimed by the God of this religion himself. And the Hebrew Bible goes on to tell of stories of people worshiping "other Gods" and how the Hebrew God directed the Hebrews to go to war against those people and commit genocide on them. If that's not an "us vs. them" mindset I don't know what is.

~~~~~

In fact, it was the "Jealous God" aspect of the original Hebrew religion that became the "Jealous God" nature of Christianity and Islam, both of which are offshoots from this original Jealous-God Religion. And this is the origin of the "us vs. them" mentality of all the Abrahamic religions.

Most other prominent modern-day religions outside of the Abrahamic circle of influence typically don't have any "jealous gods", and therefore do not preach of an "us vs. them" mentality.

Typically the only time this comes up is when one of these "non-jealous-god" religions socially collide with one of the Abrahamic religions. Then the "us vs. them" mentality becomes an issue. This is because the Abrahamic religions with their Jealous God, cannot allow for any religion that does not worship or acknowledge their Jealous God as being the "Only True God".

So it's the Abrahamic religions that are the source of the "us vs. them" mentality.

And they cannot escape this whilst retaining a believe in their Jealous Gods.

Christians cannot acknowledge or allow that Christ is not the "Only Way"

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

This is the essence of what Christ stands for. "No man cometh unto the Father but by me." This is the core of Christianity.

Asking a Christian to allow that there are multiple pathways to God is to ask them to deny that Jesus speaks the truth.

In a similar way Muslims cannot allow that there is any path to Allah save for the path put forth by Muhammad and the Qur'an which they have come to accept as the infallible words of Allah.

The idea that there could be any other pathway to Allah that isn't in perfect conformity with the Qur'an is blaspheme in Islam.

~~~~~

So it's really the Abrahamic religions that are creating the "us vs. them" mentality.

It's not preachers, evangelists, or any other religious clergy. They are just a reflection of these underlying religious core principles.

It's the Holy Texts of these religions that make these proclamations themselves.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

There's no room for alternative pathways here. This can hardly be blamed on the Christian Clergy. It's wasn't their idea.

[JP Cusick]

I am interested to know what is the position of each faith towards NMMM manifesto:
https://www.facebook.com/nmmm.org/posts ... 71902102:0

The Bible tells us true that people behave like sheep, in that they bunch together in a tight heard and they are led around by Shepherds and by sheep dogs barking, and the sheep are terrified of the wolves and they are afraid of any danger even if the danger is imaginary.

As such the people behaving as sheep will hide behind the middle-men.

The Bible tells of this same phenomenon like this = Exodus 20:19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.

The same is true of people today as lost sheep they are terrified of God as they expect to die and so the people demand (not request they demand) a middle person to stand in between them and the scary stuff.

Being referred to as a "sheep" is not a compliment, but it is an accurate metaphor.

It is far easier and far more realistic to straighten out a few people to then act as true Shepherds - rather then trying to get the sheep to stop being sheep.

[paarsurrey1]

We believe that the world has an intelligent creator; one need not to abandon reason to live as a believer; life is a continuous, reasonable search for truth, which should lead to doing beautiful deeds; but no exclusive doctrine can claim the "right" path towards this. These are the middlemen who always come up with something very specific in their doctrine and introduce it as the "secret sauce" for salvation, to color their followers differently and to establish a "us vs. them" mindset.

How is the above not already a very specialized religious position?

Christianity necessarily has a "middleman" in Christ. In Christianity Christ is the one who claim to be the only "right path".

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Jesus was a prophet/messenger of One-True-God appointed by Him, so Jesus is not the middleman. Jesus just conveyed the Message given by One-True-God to him.Had Jesus not conveyed the message exactly he must have been punished by One-True-God:

[69:45] And if he had forged and attributed any sayings to Us,
[69:46] We would surely have seized him by the right hand,
[69:47] And then surely We would have severed his life-artery,
[69:48] And not one of you could have held Us off from him.
https://www.alislam.org/quran/search2/s ... 9&verse=46

Right, please?
Pauline-Christianity does not have the true teachings of Jesus or message of the One-True-God. It is the fiction created by Paul, so Paul is the middleman of Pauline-Christianity. Right, please?

Regards

[Divine Insight]

Pauline-Christianity does not have the true teachings of Jesus or message of the One-True-God. It is the fiction created by Paul, so Paul is the middleman of Pauline-Christianity. Right, please?

Regards

Sorry, but the words of John 14:6 have nothing to do with Paul. They were written by John, not Paul. And John was claiming that these words came from Jesus himself.

Therefore you need to call John, or Jesus a liar. Paul has nothing to do with it.

Also you say:

Jesus was a prophet/messenger of One-True-God appointed by Him, so Jesus is not the middleman. Jesus just conveyed the Message given by One-True-God to him.Had Jesus not conveyed the message exactly he must have been punished by One-True-God:

Well, if you believe that Jesus was a messenger from the One-True-God then you have been told that there is no way for you to get to the One-True-God except by Jesus. So this leaves you with no choice but to bow down at the feet of Jesus and confess to him that he is the Son of God because this is the only way to the One-True-God.

If you try to by-pass Jesus you have chosen condemnation for yourself.

John 3:
[16] For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
[17] For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
[18] He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Right, please?

[paarsurrey1]

Pauline-Christianity does not have the true teachings of Jesus or message of the One-True-God. It is the fiction created by Paul, so Paul is the middleman of Pauline-Christianity. Right, please?

Regards

Sorry, but the words of John 14:6 [/color]

Right, please?

"The Gospel of John is anonymous":

Authorship, date, and origin-Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gospel_of ... and_origin

Sorry, it was doctored by Paul and or Paulin-Christianity.
Regards

[marco]

Sorry, it was doctored by Paul and or Paulin-Christianity.
Regards

But not doctored to the extent that it debars some Muslims from claiming that it predicts Muhammad. When John says that Jesus will send " allon paraklēton," another Paraclete from heaven, some construe this as meaning, seven centuries later, an Arab trader will be that very messenger. So John has his uses. We can all read selectively and come up with our own answers.

[bjs]

[Replying to safdar.dushantappeh]

This appears to be a re-write of the doctrine of the priesthood of all believers. It is pretty common among Protestant Christians. What do you believe distinguishes NMMM from that doctrine?

[JP Cusick]

But not doctored to the extent that it debars some Muslims from claiming that it predicts Muhammad. When John says that Jesus will send " allon paraklēton," another Paraclete from heaven, some construe this as meaning, seven centuries later, an Arab trader will be that very messenger. So John has his uses.

Thank you Marco as I never knew about that interpretation and I like that.

John 14:
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
-

So Muhammad and the Qur'an would be that other "comforter" that "allon paraklēton" and by happening in the year 632 CE, which is the end of 600 years which marks the beginning of a 700th century Sabbath, and God does seem to embrace numbers as significant markers.

The "spirit of truth" is what matters, and the Qur'an does make correction where Christianity had already gone astray.

Marco got it right in this case - cheers to this.

[safdar.dushantappeh]

The idea that there could be any other pathway to Allah that isn't in perfect conformity with the Qur'an is blaspheme in Islam.

That is not true. http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.shakir/2:62
"Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve. (62)"

For the quotes from the bible, my guess is that we take the immediate context into account we would understand them differently.