They saw God the Son (Exodus 24:10-11)

[Faber]

Exodus 24:10-11
(10) and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself.
(11) Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank. (NASB)

John 6:46
Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. (NASB)


Since they "saw God" (Exodus 24:10-11) but it wasn't the Father (John 6:46) to whom then does "God" refer to?

[SaulToPaul]

[Replying to post 1 by Faber]

Note at the end of Ex 24:11, that they saw a 'vision of God', what he projected to them, just how John seen visions and signs in the book of Revelation.

It still stands that no one has ever seen God, and this would mean that Jesus is not God. Moses was the only one to see the glory of God, but Moses never seen Jehovah's face, which is what is actually meant when the statement is quoted "no one has seen God at any time".

Keep up your search. Good question.

[SaulToPaul]

[Replying to post 1 by Faber]

By the way, read from the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures. When you Google "what is the most accurate translation of the bible". this is the translation that pops up.

[liamconnor]

Exodus 24:10-11
(10) and they saw the God of Israel; and under His feet there appeared to be a pavement of sapphire, as clear as the sky itself.
(11) Yet He did not stretch out His hand against the nobles of the sons of Israel; and they saw God, and they ate and drank. (NASB)

John 6:46
Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. (NASB)


Since they "saw God" (Exodus 24:10-11) but it wasn't the Father (John 6:46) to whom then does "God" refer to?

The O.T. is in Hebrew. Your question is obviously a linguistic question. Learn Hebrew. Then ask these questions of your Hebrew teachers; then ask the questions here.

[SaulToPaul]

[Replying to post 3 by SaulToPaul]

I don't think you put enough faith in Jehovah. Do you think that he would let the Bible make it this far through history without updating the language so that it could be understood? Unfortunately, there are not so many words in Hebrew as there are in English, so the original meanings, based in context, reflect the current meanings, which are completely non-contradictory, if a reliable translation is used.

Ancient Hebrew is dead. Modern English is alive and well.

[FWI]

[Replying to post 1 by Faber]

Since they "saw God" (Exodus 24:10-11) but it wasn't the Father (John 6:46) to whom then does "God" refer to?

They saw an angel of God. The books of Genesis and Exodus clearly expresses that it was an angel who interacted with physical human beings (under God's instructions). This can be supported by the usage of the Hebrew word "elohiym" (Strong's #H430) in Exodus 24:10-11.

Also, the Greek word "horao" (Strong's G3708) or translated as "seen" in English and used in John 6:46 can be expressed: either physically or mentally. Since, God is invisible to the physical, this verse is referring to the special (mental) relationship which the Christ had with his Father and no one else has...

[marco]

It still stands that no one has ever seen God, and this would mean that Jesus is not God. Moses was the only one to see the glory of God, but Moses never seen Jehovah's face, which is what is actually meant when the statement is quoted "no one has seen God at any time".

You are being highly selective in your understanding of what is meant by "seeing God."

We have the hilarious and absurd passage:


"Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live. And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock: And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a cleft of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by: And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen. " Exodus 33:20-23

I believe that in modern times this would be termed "mooning." A parallel passage from Greek mythology has Zeus appear reluctantly to Semele, who immediately perishes. So the concept of seeing God and dying may have been widespread.

Yeats painted a similar picture, far more eloquently than the silly Exodus passage:

"And bending down beside the glowing bars,
Murmur, a little sadly, how Love fled
And paced upon the mountains overhead
And hid his face amid a crowd of stars. "



As for "This shows Jesus was not God" since people saw Jesus, you seem not to know the theology surrounding the divinity of Christ. It is believed Christ had two natures, human and divine. The human Christ was placed on Earth to interact with people and of course as a human could be seen, thanks to the hypostatic union. If we accept this, there's no problem with people viewing Jesus and still believing one cannot see God.

[tigger2]

[Replying to post 7 by marco]

As for "This shows Jesus was not God" since people saw Jesus, you seem not to know the theology surrounding the divinity of Christ. It is believed Christ had two natures, human and divine. The human Christ was placed on Earth to interact with people and of course as a human could be seen, thanks to the hypostatic union. If we accept this, there's no problem with people viewing Jesus and still believing one cannot see God.

But when Jesus died, he lost his human nature. And yet, he appeared to many humans after his resurrection. No one has seen God at any time. Jesus is not God.

[marco]

But when Jesus died, he lost his human nature. And yet, he appeared to many humans after his resurrection. No one has seen God at any time. Jesus is not God.

I understand that this is not your theology, nor is it something I endorse, but it is a line of theological reasoning that cannot be dismissed in a phrase. There is no suggestion that the hypostatic union was dissolved by the resurrection - it may have concluded, since Jesus was still in human form on Earth, capable of enjoying a piece of halibut, on his Ascension. So the man people saw was not God. Moses, on the other hand, did see God, which is a bigger problem for the pronouncement that no one has seen God.

To take this as meaning "no one has seen God's face" is special pleading.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 9 by marco]

I had to look up Hypostatic because it is not a word I am familiar with.

HYPOSTATIC UNION is a technical term in Christian theology employed in mainstream Christology to describe the union of Christ's humanity and divinity in one hypostasis, or individual existence.

Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe Jesus to be Almighty God and take the word "divine" in relation to Jesus to mean godlike or as one dictionary defines "divine" "of, relating to, or proceeding directly from God... " or "a god"¤ (a powerful being). In short we understand Jesus to have been of "divine" due to his unique origin and godlike personality, but fully human while on earth, and at no time in his existence Almighty God YHWH (Jehovah).


*Merriam-Webster
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/divine

What does the word "divine" / "divinity" mean?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 896#870896

¤ NOTE: Angels and even humans are described in the bible as being "gods" in the basic sense of being individuals with a relative amount of power

CONCLUSION: I don't know if those that hold to the theology of christs "hypostatic union" are necessarily trinitarians but the above explanation explains why Jehovah's Witnesses see no conflict between passages such as Exodus 24:10-11 (or Exodus 33:20-23) and John 6:46 which we take to all be refering to Almighty God YHWH (Jehovah)

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