The logic of prayer requests

[Justin108]

Hello all,

I am posting this to ask fellow Christians to take a moment to pray for my Jehovah's Witness brothers and sisters in Russia who are suffering persecution at this present time. We can only hope the Russian authorities see the wisdom of respecting freedom of worship in their country.

JW

Further reading
https://www.jw.org/en/news/legal/by-reg ... -20170308/

A few questions on the logic of prayer requests.

1. Do prayers become stronger the more people pray? Is a prayer prayed for by 100 people more likely to come true than one prayed for by 5 people?

If yes, then what is the logic behind this? Does God only notice a prayer after enough people chip in? Do enough people need to "vote" for a prayer before God takes action? Does it somehow convince God that it's worth answering because so many people want it?

If the number of people praying is irrelevant, then why bother making prayer requests? Why not simply pray to God yourself? Wouldn't that be enough?

2. This question is specific to the prayer request below.

We can only hope the Russian authorities see the wisdom of respecting freedom of worship in their country.

Suppose God answered this prayer. Wouldn't this involve God interfering with free will? Isn't it the free will of the Russian authorities that lead to them persecuting Jehovah's Witnesses? Wouldn't God making them "see the wisdom" essentially be God messing with their free will?

[1213]

Suppose God answered this prayer. Wouldn't this involve God interfering with free will?

I don’t think it is necessary to interfere free will. Person’s mind can be changed also for example by reason with good argument.

[Justin108]

Suppose God answered this prayer. Wouldn't this involve God interfering with free will?

I don’t think it is necessary to interfere free will. Person’s mind can be changed also for example by reason with good argument.

So... God is going to argue with them?

[JehovahsWitness]

Hello all,

I am posting this to ask fellow Christians to take a moment to pray for my Jehovah's Witness brothers and sisters in Russia who are suffering persecution at this present time. We can only hope the Russian authorities see the wisdom of respecting freedom of worship in their country.

JW

Further reading
https://www.jw.org/en/news/legal/by-reg ... -20170308/

A few questions on the logic of prayer requests.

1. Do prayers become stronger the more people pray?

• No, but they do become more numerous.

Is a prayer prayed for by 100 people more likely to come true than one prayed for by 5 people?

• I don't know. I do believe however that God takes note of prayers may well be influenced to take action on a certain matter (if it be in line with His will and purpose) based on the requests of those that love him.

Does it somehow convince God that it's worth answering because so many people want it?

• See above.

Why not simply pray to God yourself? Wouldn't that be enough?

• I think one can and should pray oneself but biblically there is nothing wrong with requesting others ALSO pray on our (or other's) behalf. I personally regularly pray for others especially my Jehovah's Witness brethren in prison or being persecuted as in Russia.

JW





FURTHER READING: Prayer—Will God Hear and Answer?
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... -god-hear/


Did Jesus guarantee all prayers in his name, would be answered?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 077#809077

[JehovahsWitness]

2. This question is specific to the prayer request below.

We can only hope the Russian authorities see the wisdom of respecting freedom of worship in their country.

Suppose God answered this prayer. Wouldn't this involve God interfering with free will?

No, Jehovah's Witnesses at least, pray God helps the Russian authorities see that Jehovah's Witnesses are no threat to their nation's peace and security. We believe it is unjust that we (JWs) be catagorized as "extremist" and have been put of a list with banned groups such as AlQaida and ISIS. We pray that the authorities in that country see reason. Helping someone see reason (and subsequently choose of their own free will to make a good decision) does not "interfer" with that individual's free will, it only helps them use it (free will) more reasonably.

To illustrate: A young adult might announce they are going to go sky diving. They have little or no experience and have not had the proper training. If you exposed the potential dangers of such an endeavor and your friend changed their mind, would you have "interfered in their free will".

Jehovah's Witnesses don't pray God takes control of the minds of the Russian authorities, only that God (if He sees fit) makes it possible for them to see reason and made wiser decisions.


Isn't it the free will of the Russian authorities that lead to them persecuting Jehovah's Witnesses?

• Yes. We pray they will know and do better in the future.

Wouldn't God making them "see the wisdom" essentially be God messing with their free will?

• No, I don't believe so (see above)

JW


FURTHER READING: NYT's Report


International Reaction to Russia's BAN of Jehovah's Witnesses
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 659#863659

[Justin108]

Hello all,

I am posting this to ask fellow Christians to take a moment to pray for my Jehovah's Witness brothers and sisters in Russia who are suffering persecution at this present time. We can only hope the Russian authorities see the wisdom of respecting freedom of worship in their country.

JW

Further reading
https://www.jw.org/en/news/legal/by-reg ... -20170308/

A few questions on the logic of prayer requests.

1. Do prayers become stronger the more people pray?

• No, but they do become more numerous.

How is that helpful?

Is a prayer prayed for by 100 people more likely to come true than one prayed for by 5 people?

• I don't know. I do believe however that God takes note of prayers may well be influenced to take action on a certain matter (if it be in line with His will and purpose) based on the requests of those that love him.

Yes but does it matter how many requests he gets from those who love him?

Why not simply pray to God yourself? Wouldn't that be enough?

• I think one can and should pray oneself but biblically there is nothing wrong with requesting others ALSO pray on our (or other's) behalf.

Saying "there's nothing wrong with it" does not answer the question of "why do it?" It's about as useful a response as "well why not? If a kid asked his teacher why a bird has feathers, and the teacher answered "well why not?" would this answer be of any value to the kid?

[benchwarmer]

1. Do prayers become stronger the more people pray?

• No, but they do become more numerous.

Well, that's just stating the obvious. If more people are doing it, then there are more of them. How does it help to be 'more numerous'?

Is a prayer prayed for by 100 people more likely to come true than one prayed for by 5 people?

• I don't know. I do believe however that God takes note of prayers may well be influenced to take action on a certain matter (if it be in line with His will and purpose) based on the requests of those that love him.

Are you saying that God didn't notice the problem before? And if somehow God didn't notice, wouldn't a single prayer do the trick? Isn't everything that is happening already in line with His will and purpose?

Does it somehow convince God that it's worth answering because so many people want it?

• See above.

Above was a non answer, or at best, I don't know.

Why not simply pray to God yourself? Wouldn't that be enough?

• I think one can and should pray also pray oneself but biblically there is nothing wrong with requesting others ALSO pray on our (or other's) behalf. I personally regularly pray for others especially my Jehovah's Witness brethren in prison or being persecuted as in Russia.

So to sum up, prayers don't become stronger, there's nothing Biblically wrong with praying for others, you don't know if it makes any difference when more people do it, and God might notice something if someone prays for it (even though I assume He already knows everything going on).

Essentially, there's no harm in it, but no apparent point to it. Or am I missing something?

Here's my take on the whole thing:

- Apparently, God wants the best for each of His creations.

- Apparently, God would know what the best is for each of His creations.

- Apparently, God would be aware of what's happening.

Thus, there appears to be ZERO point in praying. Unless:

- God doesn't really want the best for each person unless nagged about it.

- God doesn't already know what the best thing to do is.

- God is unaware of what's happening.

In effect, if prayer has any use at all at affecting outcomes, then this puts God in a very bad light. It means human intervention is required to 'set things right' and God will only help if asked (potentially numerous times).

Either this God is in control or He isn't. Requiring us to step up and remind God to do His job or point out issues that need attention is frankly a nail in the coffin for this religion.

I will end with one area where I think 'prayer' may actually be useful (shocking I know, coming from an agnostic): Personal reflection.

In other words, I do think it is useful to think/ponder/pray/meditate/(pick favorite word) on your own life and your own actions. However, no magical being outside of yourself is required to perform this potentially useful activity. If you want to 'pray' for someone else, about the only useful outcome of doing this will be to convince yourself that you should step in and help in some way yourself.

[JehovahsWitness]

Yes but does it matter how many requests he gets from those who love him?

Yes, I believe it does matter how many people pray about a something.

If the number is zero God would know that the matter was of no interest to anyone. If the matter involved the suffering of others, this might well reflect a lack of compassion for others and that would matter because the second greatest commandement is to love your neighbour as yourself, so their lack of prayers may well reflect a lack of love.

If there were, let's say 8 million (which is I would guess the minimum number of prayers that were offered on the specific question of the ban of a just outcome for Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia), it would show a deep spiritual concern of many millions of people regarding Gods will and purpose.


So to answer the question "WHY do it" [ie Why pray]?

Because prayer is absolutely essential for spiritual people. It preserves our relationship with God and ensures we have a supply of holy spirit so we have the strength so serve God faithfully and is, I believe is psycologically beneficial which in turn may well have physical benefits for the person praying.

Also socially it shows we care about spiritual things and God may well (if it be within the paremeters of his will and purpose) take specific measures in response to our prayers. Further even if God doesn't grant specific requests we may have made, many people I have met and myself personally find prayer provides us with a deep sense of peace and is a strong unifying factor, it being an expression of solidarity of faith and/or intention.


JW

Essentially, there's no harm in it, but no apparent point to it. Or am I missing something?

• Yes I believe you are missing a lot. see above.

[JehovahsWitness]

• I do believe however that God takes note of prayers may well be influenced to take action on a certain matter (if it be in line with His will and purpose) based on the requests of those that love him.

Are you saying that God didn't notice the problem before?

Emphasis MINE

No, there is nothing that happens that escapes God's notice but God only "takes note" of prayers (see emphasised in red) once they have been made, not before (because before the pray is made it doesn't exist). So I'm saying I believe God takes note, (acknowledges the fact of) the prayers and may act in response to them in some way.

The first century Christians when persecuted prayed for "boldness" to keep declaring the gospel. God surely was aware of the problem of persecution and their need for courage and evidently it was His will and purpose that the Christians did indeed keep preaching but He only responded to the request for (additional) boldness AFTER they asked for it.

QUESTION: Does God need humans to pray before he is aware of a problem? or that he will only act if initiated by a human(s) praying


No, God doesn't need anything but prayer shows God the depth of our devotion and fellow feeling and serves as a unifying factor between believers. Below are some examples.

Jesus taught his followers to pray "Let your kingdom come, Let your will be done on earth...". Does that mean it won't come unless multiples request are made for it? No! humans do not determine God's will but their earnest prayers do show him the depth of their faith and devotion. God's kingdom won't come faster if more people pray for it, but praying will keep Christian believers focused and this will increase their chances of being found faithful when that day arrives.

JESUS himself is recorded as praying for Peter. Jesus knew the Apostle Peter would deny him (Jesus) three times. Jesus prayed that Peter's fatih recover from the blow. Does that mean that God was not aware of what would happen and needed "reminding"? Or that without being told, God would not have supported a repentant Peter? No, but the prayful request reflected Jesus' affection for Peter and confidence that Peter could make better choices. It thus strengthened the union between all three.

Isn't everything that is happening already in line with His will and purpose?

No, not at all. The bible shows us that God has seen fit to allow many things that are displeasing to him which were never part of his orginal purpose; indeed a lot of things that are happening today he hates. It also however indicates that God intends to remedy this situation and will on occassion intervene or take action on various matters (especially in my experience on a personal level) when doing so in harmony with the overal direction he wants things to go in.



JW




FURTHER READING: Prayer Will God Hear and Answer?
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... -god-hear/

Did Jesus guarantee all prayers in his name, would be answered?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 77#p809077

[Justin108]

Yes, I believe it does matter how many people pray about a something.

If the number is zero God would know that the matter was of no interest to anyone. If the matter involved the suffering of others, this might well reflect a lack of compassion for others and that would matter because the second greatest commandement is to love your neighbour as yourself, so their lack of prayers may well reflect a lack of love.

But if someone asked you to pray as you did in the OP, you're not praying because you chose to. You're praying on request. If the person felt that the Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia needed praying for, wouldn't they as a reflection of their own love make that decision themselves? Does you asking them somehow make them love the Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia more?

If there were, let's say 8 million (which is I would guess the minimum number of prayers that were offered on the specific question of the ban of a just outcome for Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia), it would show a deep spiritual concern of many millions of people regarding Gods will and purpose.

But is that more important to God? If one person cared deeply about something and the rest of the world doesn't care, would not not care either?

Consider this. Suppose we had a boy in school named Billy. Billy was a quiet, shy student with not many friends. He has a single mom, no other family. Billy gets cancer. The only people praying for Billy is Billy and his mom. No one else.

Suppose, however, a very popular celebrity were to get cancer. The celebrity inspires the prayers of millions of people.

Are the millions of prayers for the celebrity going to be more effective than the two prayers for Billy? At this point, prayers become a popularity contest. Does the fact that more people care about something mean that it's automatically more important?

So to answer the question "WHY do it" [ie Why pray]?

Because prayer is absolutely essential for spiritual people. It preserves our relationship with God and ensures we have a supply of holy spirit so we have the strength so serve God faithfully and is, I believe is psycologically beneficial which in turn may well have physical benefits for the person praying.

So it's not so much about the prayer coming true than it is the people praying feeling better about themselves?

Also socially it shows we care about spiritual things and God may well (if it be within the paremeters of his will and purpose) take specific measures in response to our prayers.

Does God not know our hearts well enough to know what we care about?

This might be an explanation for why you pray, but it doesn't explain why you ask others to pray. If people truly cared about the Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia, you simply telling them what's happening there should be enough to either make them care or not. So what does "pray to them" add? Does it make them care more?