Can we find good in God?

[marco]

I cannot see much in the OT God beyond violence and anger. He may have removed the splinter from someone's foot but the general picture, for me, is one of unremitting terror, except when he is addressing a favourite human. For example, what friend would ask a father to kill his son?

We can all find examples of savagery, brutality, jealousy, spite ,,, but since it is Christmas, can we try to find examples where Jehovah is unambiguously kind?

Or is Jehovah simply beyond redemption?

[bjs]

I cannot see much in the OT God beyond violence and anger. He may have removed the splinter from someone's foot but the general picture, for me, is one of unremitting terror, except when he is addressing a favourite human. For example, what friend would ask a father to kill his son?

We can all find examples of savagery, brutality, jealousy, spite ,,, but since it is Christmas, can we try to find examples where Jehovah is unambiguously kind?

Or is Jehovah simply beyond redemption?

If the OT account is true, then Jehovah gave life to everything that lives, food to everything that eats, and air to everything that breaths. He provided the ability to feel love, hope, joy, contentment, wonder, peace, and meaning. He is slow to anger, abounding in steadfast love, and “His love endures forever.�

These seem like good things.

[marco]

I cannot see much in the OT God beyond violence and anger. He may have removed the splinter from someone's foot but the general picture, for me, is one of unremitting terror, except when he is addressing a favourite human. For example, what friend would ask a father to kill his son?

We can all find examples of savagery, brutality, jealousy, spite ,,, but since it is Christmas, can we try to find examples where Jehovah is unambiguously kind?

Or is Jehovah simply beyond redemption?

If the OT account is true, then Jehovah gave life to everything that lives, food to everything that eats, and air to everything that breathes. He provided the ability to feel love, hope, joy, contentment, wonder, peace, and meaning. He is slow to anger, abounding in steadfast love, and “His love endures forever.�

These seem like good things.

That is a good testimonial. The reality disappoints. To the tiger he gave a variety of animals to tear to pieces; to the shark he gave other parts of his creation, for food and sometimes he allowed them to nibble at humans; in addition to rain he produced an over-abundance of water, killing thousands in tsunamis; fire gave warmth, and destroyed Pompeii and Herculaneum. As well as blessing humans with joy, hope, love, peace .... he gave them pain, anger, sorrow, disappointment, silence... Tell the starving kids in drought-ridden Africa of his enduring love.

For every plus the Lord supplied a minus, as would chance.

If his love endures forever, where was it when mere children of his chosen people begged for help in the Holocaust? His slowness to anger took a back seat when Lot's wife just turned round to have a look, a natural reaction. We know what he's supposed to be - as I say, the reality is different.

[William]

[Replying to post 1 by marco]

Can we find good in God?

Yes. The idea of GOD does not mean that there can be no good in that idea.

I cannot see much in the OT God beyond violence and anger.

This would be expected, since the universe is violent and certainly the biological life forms react violently to that.

But also, there are qualities which come out of the violence which are not violent.

This speaks to me that consciousness rises to the challenge and does great things in the face of/despite the violence.

He may have removed the splinter from someone's foot but the general picture, for me, is one of unremitting terror, except when he is addressing a favourite human. For example, what friend would ask a father to kill his son?

Yes this speaks of most likely being sourced within the violence of the human psyche which has then attached itself to ideas of GOD.

What country would ask its citizens to sacrifice themselves for policy, even in the name of GOD. Would this practice stop if all idea of GOD was purged from the human mind?

I don't think so.

Therefore, I think that any complaint related to evil in GOD has to be related to the idea that any idea of GOD has to be GOOD. Is that your argument?

We can all find examples of savagery, brutality, jealousy, spite ,,, but since it is Christmas, can we try to find examples where Jehovah is unambiguously kind?

Or is Jehovah simply beyond redemption?

For you, the question as to this particular idea of GOD being beyond redemption, is entire yours to answer.

Can you forgive the idea of Jehovah?

And is your question related to the notion that all ideas of have to be GOOD?

[Tcg]

If the OT account is true, then Jehovah gave life to everything that lives, food to everything that eats, and air to everything that breaths. He provided the ability to feel love, hope, joy, contentment, wonder, peace, and meaning.

Perhaps the claims from your second sentence are from some part of the OT I haven't read in a very long time and have forgotten. Can you refresh my memory by showing where Jehovah provided the ability to feel love, hope, joy, contentment, wonder, peace, and meaning?

He is slow to anger, abounding in steadfast love, and “His love endures forever.�

Like condemning all of humanity because some dude ate his favorite fruit?

Like drowning all life, but a few select individuals because... well there are so many explanations it's hard to know why god was so angry that he killed almost every living thing on earth because they... or some of them... did something that caused his steadfast love to evaporate?

Like killing David's child because David committed adultery and murder? I guess you could say his love endured for David, not so much for David's child. I guess it pays to be king.

[marco]

Yes. The idea of GOD does not mean that there can be no good in that idea.

I wasn't talking about the philosophy of God but his portrayal in the OT.

I cannot see much in the OT God beyond violence and anger.

This would be expected, since the universe is violent and certainly the biological life forms react violently to that.

But also, there are qualities which come out of the violence which are not violent.

This speaks to me that consciousness rises to the challenge and does great things in the face of/despite the violence.

I have no idea what this means in the context of Yahweh. My view is that he is a character invented by ancient writers. It is his characterisation we're discussing.

Can you forgive the idea of Jehovah?

And is your question related to the notion that all ideas God of have to be GOOD?

Am I under scrutiny rather than Yahweh? I cannot relate these comments to the requirements of the OP. I don't blame Shakespeare for inventing Iago. I am examining the Biblical creation. You have transferred this to considerations of an all-encompassing idea of a deity. I don't suppose your philosophical construct is bad or good, interested or indifferent.

[Divine Insight]

If the OT account is true, then Jehovah gave life to everything that lives, food to everything that eats, and air to everything that breaths.

If Jehovah designed living things to need to eat and breath don't think he SHOULD also provide them with food and air?

Yet, what do we see? A dog-eat-dog world where many animals are designed to prey on each other for food. Not only this, but not everything is edible. Some things are poisonous. That wasn't very nice of him to create poisonous edible things. Some gasses in the atmosphere are also hazardous to life. Especially near a volcano. Some water is also poisonous or carries horrible diseases.

I would say that a God who had created us to need to eat, drink, and breathe, should have made a world where obtaining dependable foodstuff should not be a problem.

Why do some animals need to prey on each other?

Jesus said:

Matthew 6:26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

Was Jesus stupid to think that God feeds the birds? Perhaps he never bothered to actually study the life of birds?

Birds have to risk their lives to find food. They are often eat by predators when they go out looking for food. Some birds are themselves predators eating the eggs and babies of other birds. Birds often STEAL their food. Is that how God "feeds" them?

Clearly Jesus had no clue what he was talking about. God doesn't feed the birds, nor does he feed humans. In fact, if God's birds are any example of how humans are supposed to obtain food we would be wise to keep our babies out of reach of other humans!

I mean, seriously. This idea that God provides food for anyone is absurd.

If there is a God who created us so that we need to eat food it was basically nothing short of a 'dirty trick' to then place us on a planet where we have to find our own food sources and potentially fight over them with other hungry humans as well.

Let's not get into the whole poison and disease thing.

What does the OT say:

Genesis 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

Genesis 1:29 was a big lie.

List of Inedible Fruits

[1213]

...Freedom would be their understanding of what the apple would do... what the serpent was, what it means.

If they had had freedom, they would have understood their choices.

I have no reason to think they didn’t understand. And sorry, I don’t think knowing all is necessary for freedom. Person can always want freely also things he doesn’t know yet (something else).

[Willum]

[Replying to post 27 by 1213]

"All knowing?" I said understanding...
Understanding, for example that they would condemn all of creation.

I don't think they understood that or all the other ramifications. But perhaps you could provide the Bible verse that shows me wrong?

Oh well.

[William]

[Replying to post 25 by marco]

My view is that he is a character invented by ancient writers. It is his characterisation we're discussing.

So basically you are doing a book review where criticizing a main character which is portrayed as evil but is really good, or portrayed as good but is really evil?

All I am attempting to point out is that your focus seems to imply that there is absolute good and evil and that the biblical story thus conflates the idea that GOD must be good, not evil...in that absolute sense - and that the playwrights have got it wrong.

[marco]

So basically you are doing a book review

That is precisely what I am doing.

All I am attempting to point out is that your focus seems to imply that there is absolute good and evil and that the biblical story thus conflates the idea that GOD must be good, not evil...in that absolute sense - and that the playwrights have got it wrong.

Discussion of absolutes is on Tuesdays. I think the playwrights painted the being they wanted: cruel, powerful, desirous of trophies, demanding subservience, quick to anger, jealous and merciless. The OP is an attempt to find some nice adjectives for the character they created but I think they did too good a job. He was meant to intimidate and he does. Jesus introduced a new character in a new play.