If there was life elsewhere...

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SaulToPaul
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If there was life elsewhere...

Post #1

Post by SaulToPaul »

Then the Sovereignty of Jehovah should not be an issue... But it is.

If life existed elsewhere, then Jehovah would have no point to prove. His sovereignty would already have been vindicated, and there would be no need to keep up with allowing suffering to continue. He could simply destroy the rebels, and move on.

Adam and Eve and Satan all rebelled at the same time. He could have simply destroyed them and started fresh, but it's not like there was only those 3 involved. There were hundreds of millions of angels paying attention to how Jehovah handled this situation. If Jehovah would have destroyed Satan, Adam and Eve, then no point would have been proven. Jehovah would have just been a tyrant. Instead, he allowed all to partake in this scenario that has been underway for over 6,000 years. He has given us every opportunity to rule ourselves to show that we can not rule ourselves. Have we done a good job? He has allowed Satan chance after chance to attempt to do what only Jehovah can do, which is, create peace and serenity. Paradise. Has he been able to?

Do you know that Satan won the first round? When Jehovah allowed Satan to live, Satan and his demons (simply bad angels) had fun, instead of doing what Jehovah allowed Satan to do (create peace). The world was so bad in round one, that Jehovah had to flood the world to remove the wicked. And unfortunately, Satan had to be given another chance. This time though, he and his demons were confined to heaven, able to travel only in spirit form. No more physical form. No more mating with human women.

So, in round two (the current round), Satan still has dominion over the world, but there are clearly defined rules. Jehovah has known that Satan is going to fail. There are so many prophecies about it. But that has not stopped Satan from trying. Nor mankind.

After it's all said and done, after the resurrection, when Satan is destroyed, and all of the wicked are once again destroyed, once and for all, then the earth will be returned to it's paradise state, as was originally intended. At that point, if an angel were to stand up and do what Satan did, or an human were to stand up and do what Adam and Eve did, saying "I or we think we can do Jehovah's job better than Him", then Jehovah would have no cause to let the new rebels live. The point has been proven. All of intelligent creation will be able to stand up in union, and say with a loud voice "NO YOU CAN'T!", and peace and security can reign for eternity. History will have been written. He gave us and Satan ample opportunity to create peace. He and we have failed.

When you start to look at things like this, everything starts to make sense. It's logical.

All life has free will. Only humans and angels truly understand what that means. There is no such thing as "it was God's will". The only "will" he has, is that all come to repentance and come back to him as willing slaves. But, that is still the problem. No one wants to give up their life to do Jehovah's will.

Give it up. You are fighting a losing battle. Here is something very important: Everyone who dies before the resurrection will be given a second chance at the resurrection. But those who do not make the correct choice and die at Armageddon, they die for eternity. That time will probably happen very shortly. Fortunately for you, you won't go to Hell, because it doesn't exist. Romans 6:23 "the wages of sin is death", not "the wages of sin is Hell". When you die, you. Are. Dead. Period. No soul. You ARE the soul, as referred to in the Bible. One other scripture to prove that you don't go to Hell; Jeremiah 7:31 "They have built the high places of To'pheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hin'nom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart." These are Jehovah's words.

These are things that the Word says. If you want to know a lot more logical reasoning, I would love to teach you what is known to Jehovah's Witnesses as "The Truth".

God is love. He is only allowing things to happen because he has to. If he intervenes, then the point won't be proven. Come to him while you can. There are almost 9 million of us, and we are most definitely not a cult, lol. Type "define: cult" into Google. We worship Jehovah, not a man, and we are not sinister. We are true Christians. Do you know what the word Christian means? "Christ-like". If you claim Christianity, then you are REQUIRED to walk as that one did. To the very best of your ability.

I hope to hear from you. I can answer your questions, and if I can't, I can get the answer. The Holy Spirit is amazing.

Best regards,

-Paul

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Post #31

Post by 2timothy316 »

tam wrote:
To claim that truth is subjective is absurd. Truth is objective and fact. It doesn't change with the shifting sands.
Who claimed otherwise?
One person hears one thing from Jesus and yet another hears something else, who claims that the truth is subjective...lol. You do and all those that claim that Jesus speaks to them.

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Post #32

Post by tam »

2timothy316 wrote:
tam wrote: Though I find it strange that you (or anyone who believes in God and in Christ) could think the Bible is better than Christ for revealing, explaining, leading into all truth.
Funny, Jesus quoted the Bible often and even read from it. When tempted by Satan did Jesus use his own words? No. For example in Luke 4:4 Jesus answered, "It is written". What was he quoting from?
Do you recall that it was the Adversary who started that by quoting scripture to Christ? Christ just beat him at his own game.

Do you also recall where Christ said that He speaks as He hears and has learned from His FATHER?

"My teaching is not My own," [Jesus] replied. "It comes from Him who sent Me.

"I have much to say about you and much to judge. But the One who sent Me is truthful, and what I have heard from Him, I tell the world."

So [Jesus] said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing on My own, but speak exactly what the Father has taught Me.

Though I find it strange that you (or anyone who believes in God and in Christ) could think what Jesus used to quote from as inferior. If the Bible was good enough for Jesus why is not good enough for us?
Inferior to Christ? Of course it is! Doesn't mean it does not have its uses; but it is certainly not superior or even equal to Christ. Do you truly think the Bible is superior to Christ, the Living Word of God?

Do you truly think listening to the Bible (even though that book testifies that Christ lives and speaks and that He said His sheep would listen to His voice)... is greater than listening to Christ?
At any rate your answer is unsatisfactory seeing as who are you to say that the man that smokes weed isn't talking to God. How do you know? That is quite presumptuous of you.
The man smoking weed could be talking to God. He could even hear from and be listening to Christ.

I did not state otherwise.

But I was not talking about someone who might be hallucinating because they were high on drugs. And I was not talking about hearing directly from God, but rather from Christ.

As far as people getting different meanings from the Bible that is a personal interpretation issue and not the Bible's fault.


It is also not Christ's fault if people make false claims about hearing Him; nor is it His fault if people do not test the inspired expressions.
People interpret based on their own wants.
Yep.
Yet the Bible says the same thing day in and day out. The words don't change.
Translations do though; scribal errors occur as well.

And there is a difference between the Bible and the living Word of God. Christ can and does continue to teach us, just as He said (and as is even recorded in that book), "I have more to teach you, more than you can yet bear."
What I see is that what you are being told is different from what Brian and the man smoking weed is being told. The words DO change for you folks.
If that is true, then obviously we are not all listening to the same Spirit.

But why would that mean that Christ does not speak? That Christ is inferior to the Bible?

The man that smokes weed told me that he gets more spiritual direction form smoking weed than from the Bible.


Okay. Perhaps that is true. Can't test the inspired expression though, without knowing what he is receiving.
He says that the spirit says is the reason that the black population was because of Jesus' name.


This sentence is not complete. Can you correct it please?
What is he hearing that you are not and visa versa? How can you tell what he is hearing is wrong and what you hear is right? In other words what gives you or anyone the right to say who is listening to this spiritual advice you all speak of the right thing and who is hearing the wrong thing? You can't use the Bible to tell me either because according to you it's inferior. So what will you do now to prove to me what the man that smokes weed hears from the spirit is inferior to what you hear?
Need you to correct the sentence first.
What is your touchstone? What do you hold what you hear up to in order to see if it pure. What should the man that smokes weed hold what he hears up to in order to see if it is pure?
We must hold everything up to the Light. Christ is the Light. Christ is the Truth.

As stated earlier, we are told to test the inspired expression. So I would test that against Christ (ask Him), against love (which God IS and which the law IS), and against what is written (beginning with what Christ said and did, since He is the Truth).



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Post #33

Post by tam »

2timothy316 wrote:
tam wrote:
To claim that truth is subjective is absurd. Truth is objective and fact. It doesn't change with the shifting sands.
Who claimed otherwise?
One person hears one thing from Jesus and yet another hears something else, who claims that the truth is subjective...lol. You do and all those that claim that Jesus speaks to them.

You left out the question I asked after I wrote, 'who claimed otherwise'?

JW's and evangelicals teach different things, and yet you both claim your beliefs are based upon the bible. Does that mean truth is subjective, changing with the shifting sands?



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Post #34

Post by brianbbs67 »

2timothy316 wrote:
brianbbs67 wrote:
2timothy316 wrote:
brianbbs67 wrote: But, they are right about a lot and could gain more if they looked beyond their bible.
So here's a question that I have never heard a good answer for: When it comes to explaining God, Jesus, angels, mankind's relation to them, Earth and Heaven what is better than the Bible?
Direct response from God or His messengers.
tam wrote:
Christ. Always. He is the Truth and the Word of God. The LIVING Truth and LIVING Word of God.
Interesting. A man once told me that he heard God's spirit talking to him while he was high on weed. Is this what you mean? Is everyone that claims to hear God actually hearing God? When a man claims he speaks to God and then puts on a suicide vest and blows up people, is God really speaking to him?

I reject your answer based on the fact if everyone's claims where true and they actually spoke to God they'd all believe the same thing. Brian you and Tammy should believe and teach the same things, but you don't. I can only conclude that who ever you both listening to is not the Almighty.

To claim that truth is subjective is absurd. Truth is objective and fact. It doesn't change with the shifting sands.
I did not say everyone who claims to talk to God, does. You asked what would be better. Seemed simple to me. I wouldn't discount anyone immediately that said God spoke to them. It could happen. Their acts and message should show the truth pretty quickly.

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Re: If there was life elsewhere...

Post #35

Post by Claire Evans »

SaulToPaul wrote: Then the Sovereignty of Jehovah should not be an issue... But it is.

If life existed elsewhere, then Jehovah would have no point to prove. His sovereignty would already have been vindicated, and there would be no need to keep up with allowing suffering to continue. He could simply destroy the rebels, and move on.

Adam and Eve and Satan all rebelled at the same time. He could have simply destroyed them and started fresh, but it's not like there was only those 3 involved. There were hundreds of millions of angels paying attention to how Jehovah handled this situation. If Jehovah would have destroyed Satan, Adam and Eve, then no point would have been proven. Jehovah would have just been a tyrant. Instead, he allowed all to partake in this scenario that has been underway for over 6,000 years. He has given us every opportunity to rule ourselves to show that we can not rule ourselves. Have we done a good job? He has allowed Satan chance after chance to attempt to do what only Jehovah can do, which is, create peace and serenity. Paradise. Has he been able to?

Do you know that Satan won the first round? When Jehovah allowed Satan to live, Satan and his demons (simply bad angels) had fun, instead of doing what Jehovah allowed Satan to do (create peace). The world was so bad in round one, that Jehovah had to flood the world to remove the wicked. And unfortunately, Satan had to be given another chance. This time though, he and his demons were confined to heaven, able to travel only in spirit form. No more physical form. No more mating with human women.

So, in round two (the current round), Satan still has dominion over the world, but there are clearly defined rules. Jehovah has known that Satan is going to fail. There are so many prophecies about it. But that has not stopped Satan from trying. Nor mankind.

After it's all said and done, after the resurrection, when Satan is destroyed, and all of the wicked are once again destroyed, once and for all, then the earth will be returned to it's paradise state, as was originally intended. At that point, if an angel were to stand up and do what Satan did, or an human were to stand up and do what Adam and Eve did, saying "I or we think we can do Jehovah's job better than Him", then Jehovah would have no cause to let the new rebels live. The point has been proven. All of intelligent creation will be able to stand up in union, and say with a loud voice "NO YOU CAN'T!", and peace and security can reign for eternity. History will have been written. He gave us and Satan ample opportunity to create peace. He and we have failed.

When you start to look at things like this, everything starts to make sense. It's logical.

All life has free will. Only humans and angels truly understand what that means. There is no such thing as "it was God's will". The only "will" he has, is that all come to repentance and come back to him as willing slaves. But, that is still the problem. No one wants to give up their life to do Jehovah's will.

Give it up. You are fighting a losing battle. Here is something very important: Everyone who dies before the resurrection will be given a second chance at the resurrection. But those who do not make the correct choice and die at Armageddon, they die for eternity. That time will probably happen very shortly. Fortunately for you, you won't go to Hell, because it doesn't exist. Romans 6:23 "the wages of sin is death", not "the wages of sin is Hell". When you die, you. Are. Dead. Period. No soul. You ARE the soul, as referred to in the Bible. One other scripture to prove that you don't go to Hell; Jeremiah 7:31 "They have built the high places of To'pheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hin'nom, in order to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, something that I had not commanded and that had never even come into my heart." These are Jehovah's words.

These are things that the Word says. If you want to know a lot more logical reasoning, I would love to teach you what is known to Jehovah's Witnesses as "The Truth".

God is love. He is only allowing things to happen because he has to. If he intervenes, then the point won't be proven. Come to him while you can. There are almost 9 million of us, and we are most definitely not a cult, lol. Type "define: cult" into Google. We worship Jehovah, not a man, and we are not sinister. We are true Christians. Do you know what the word Christian means? "Christ-like". If you claim Christianity, then you are REQUIRED to walk as that one did. To the very best of your ability.

I hope to hear from you. I can answer your questions, and if I can't, I can get the answer. The Holy Spirit is amazing.

Best regards,

-Paul
First of all, suffering exists not because God allows it but because He really cannot do anything about it. If I was God, I'd put an end to suffering now. However, the world has given the power to Satan and that disables God's power to influence the world. Why would God make Satan so powerful when He knows that Satan causes the utmost evil and suffering? And if one argues that it makes God a tyrant to not allow Satan run rampant, then what about the after life when Satan is destroyed? Isn't it being a tyrant to take away free will because we can no longer choose between Him and Satan?

No, Satan is a powerful being in his own right. God is not omnipotent. God knows Satan cannot repent because it is impossible. Satan is the source of all evil.

There is such a thing as "God's will". Does He not want to guide us in life? I know He has will for me in my life because it is best for me and will lead me in a certain direction. There is also such thing as "permissive will" That is when God allows something to bad to happen only if it will spiritually refine us. This only applies to those who love and trust Jesus. God has all the power of the life of a person who gives it to Him.

This is a hell.

Matthew 13


…41The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will weed out of His kingdom every cause of sin and all who practice lawlessness. 42And they will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth

You can't gnash your teeth when you are dead.

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Re: If there was life elsewhere...

Post #36

Post by Monta »

[Replying to post 35 by Claire Evans]


"No, Satan is a powerful being in his own right. God is not omnipotent. God knows Satan cannot repent because it is impossible. Satan is the source of all evil. "

Nowhere does the Bible say that 'satan is a powerful being'.
Nowhere does it say that 'God is not omnipotent' - did you actually mean to say that?
Nowhere are we told that satan is the source of all evil.

Satan did not exist before man's creation. It came into existence after man chose to contradict God's laws. Satan as an entity does not exist but the evils and falsities done by man are called satans and devils.

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Re: If there was life elsewhere...

Post #37

Post by brianbbs67 »

[Replying to post 36 by Monta]

I agree with all, except the last sentence. All writing/ scripture concerning the High Adversary says he was of the heavenly host. Which was established before us.

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Re: If there was life elsewhere...

Post #38

Post by Monta »

brianbbs67 wrote: [Replying to post 36 by Monta]

I agree with all, except the last sentence. All writing/ scripture concerning the High Adversary says he was of the heavenly host. Which was established before us.
If you could offer some of that scripture that would be help.

In light of this discussion, is it satan to be blamed for thousands of children dying in Yemen at the moment? Also, is satan telling our leaders to continue their support of countries which are responsible for distruction of Yemen, one of poorest countries in the world.

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Re: If there was life elsewhere...

Post #39

Post by brianbbs67 »

[Replying to post 38 by Monta]

Ezekiel 28 would be a good spot. the adversary seem to be of the host.

Here is a link with a lot of verses. I have not proof read it all, but most of the refenced verses say the same as I posted.

https://answersingenesis.org/angels-and ... n-of-evil/

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Re: If there was life elsewhere...

Post #40

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Monta wrote:
In light of this discussion, is it satan to be blamed for thousands of children dying in Yemen at the moment? Also, is satan telling our leaders to continue their support of countries which are responsible for distruction of Yemen, one of poorest countries in the world.
Yes, Satan is the God of the world, meaning he set up the system and he influences the world leaders as a group to achieve his (Satan's) aims. All war, suffering and oppression, ultimately is the result of the "god of the world" Satan the Devil who, like a grand pupeteer pulls the strings that run this world's governmental, religious and commercial systems. Satan hates humans, enjoys seeing them die; he is totally devoid of compassion; he has no "soft spot" for children or babies, Yemeniese or otherwise.


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Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Thu Feb 24, 2022 1:07 am, edited 2 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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