The logic of prayer requests

[Justin108]

Hello all,

I am posting this to ask fellow Christians to take a moment to pray for my Jehovah's Witness brothers and sisters in Russia who are suffering persecution at this present time. We can only hope the Russian authorities see the wisdom of respecting freedom of worship in their country.

JW

Further reading
https://www.jw.org/en/news/legal/by-reg ... -20170308/

A few questions on the logic of prayer requests.

1. Do prayers become stronger the more people pray? Is a prayer prayed for by 100 people more likely to come true than one prayed for by 5 people?

If yes, then what is the logic behind this? Does God only notice a prayer after enough people chip in? Do enough people need to "vote" for a prayer before God takes action? Does it somehow convince God that it's worth answering because so many people want it?

If the number of people praying is irrelevant, then why bother making prayer requests? Why not simply pray to God yourself? Wouldn't that be enough?

2. This question is specific to the prayer request below.

We can only hope the Russian authorities see the wisdom of respecting freedom of worship in their country.

Suppose God answered this prayer. Wouldn't this involve God interfering with free will? Isn't it the free will of the Russian authorities that lead to them persecuting Jehovah's Witnesses? Wouldn't God making them "see the wisdom" essentially be God messing with their free will?

[liamconnor]

Hello all,

I am posting this to ask fellow Christians to take a moment to pray for my Jehovah's Witness brothers and sisters in Russia who are suffering persecution at this present time. We can only hope the Russian authorities see the wisdom of respecting freedom of worship in their country.

JW

Further reading
https://www.jw.org/en/news/legal/by-reg ... -20170308/

A few questions on the logic of prayer requests.

1. Do prayers become stronger the more people pray? Is a prayer prayed for by 100 people more likely to come true than one prayed for by 5 people?

If yes, then what is the logic behind this? Does God only notice a prayer after enough people chip in? Do enough people need to "vote" for a prayer before God takes action? Does it somehow convince God that it's worth answering because so many people want it?

If the number of people praying is irrelevant, then why bother making prayer requests? Why not simply pray to God yourself? Wouldn't that be enough?

2. This question is specific to the prayer request below.

We can only hope the Russian authorities see the wisdom of respecting freedom of worship in their country.

Suppose God answered this prayer. Wouldn't this involve God interfering with free will? Isn't it the free will of the Russian authorities that lead to them persecuting Jehovah's Witnesses? Wouldn't God making them "see the wisdom" essentially be God messing with their free will?

1. Do prayers become stronger the more people pray? Is a prayer prayed for by 100 people more likely to come true than one prayed for by 5 people?

More likely? That involves probability; if the deity prayed to is more like a person, then obviously mathematical probability does not factor.

And since the model for supplication is "not my will but thine", obviously petitionary prayer is not thought of as magic.

If yes, then what is the logic behind this? Does God only notice a prayer after enough people chip in? Do enough people need to "vote" for a prayer before God takes action? Does it somehow convince God that it's worth answering because so many people want it?

Nope.

If the number of people praying is irrelevant, then why bother making prayer requests? Why not simply pray to God yourself? Wouldn't that be enough?

If "religion" were a "just you and me God" enterprise, then perhaps. As Christianity is apparently far more communal, then obviously there is more to communal prayer than "effectiveness". Even should the prayer be answered in ways not desired, there is now a community, all having prayed for the same result, that one can enter into: they can grieve together, be angry at God together, heal together, grow together.

Suppose God answered this prayer. Wouldn't this involve God interfering with free will?

No. The notion of "violating free will" in the philosophical sense is a contradiction. It cannot be done. Not because it is "too difficult" but because it is a logical non-entity.

[JehovahsWitness]

Hello all,

I am posting this to ask fellow Christians to take a moment to pray for my Jehovah's Witness brothers and sisters in Russia who are suffering persecution at this present time. We can only hope the Russian authorities see the wisdom of respecting freedom of worship in their country.

JW

Further reading
https://www.jw.org/en/news/legal/by-reg ... -20170308/

Returning to the point about praying for the Russian Jehovahs Witnesses presently being persecuted, my prayers include requests that they face their test with courage. I believe they will indeed be granted the strength to keep their integrity under such harsh conditions.


JW

[Justin108]

Yes, I believe it does matter how many people pray about a something.

If the number is zero God would know that the matter was of no interest to anyone. If the matter involved the suffering of others, this might well reflect a lack of compassion for others and that would matter because the second greatest commandement is to love your neighbour as yourself, so their lack of prayers may well reflect a lack of love.

But if someone asked you to pray as you did in the OP, you're not praying because you chose to. You're praying on request. If the person felt that the Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia needed praying for, wouldn't they as a reflection of their own love make that decision themselves? Does you asking them somehow make them love the Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia more?

If there were, let's say 8 million (which is I would guess the minimum number of prayers that were offered on the specific question of the ban of a just outcome for Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia), it would show a deep spiritual concern of many millions of people regarding Gods will and purpose.

But is that more important to God? If one person cared deeply about something and the rest of the world doesn't care, would not not care either?

Consider this. Suppose we had a boy in school named Billy. Billy was a quiet, shy student with not many friends. He has a single mom, no other family. Billy gets cancer. The only people praying for Billy is Billy and his mom. No one else.

Suppose, however, a very popular celebrity were to get cancer. The celebrity inspires the prayers of millions of people.

Are the millions of prayers for the celebrity going to be more effective than the two prayers for Billy? At this point, prayers become a popularity contest. Does the fact that more people care about something mean that it's automatically more important?

So to answer the question "WHY do it" [ie Why pray]?

Because prayer is absolutely essential for spiritual people. It preserves our relationship with God and ensures we have a supply of holy spirit so we have the strength so serve God faithfully and is, I believe is psycologically beneficial which in turn may well have physical benefits for the person praying.

So it's not so much about the prayer coming true than it is the people praying feeling better about themselves?

Also socially it shows we care about spiritual things and God may well (if it be within the paremeters of his will and purpose) take specific measures in response to our prayers.

Does God not know our hearts well enough to know what we care about?

This might be an explanation for why you pray, but it doesn't explain why you ask others to pray. If people truly cared about the Jehovah's Witnesses in Russia, you simply telling them what's happening there should be enough to either make them care or not. So what does "pray to them" add? Does it make them care more?

[Inigo Montoya]

If you believe this god of yours is author to all things, and that all things unfold in accordance with it's intent, you're essentially saying you know better than this god when you pray for an outcome contrary to the one unfolding naturally. The Russians may also be praying for a successful persecution toward the JWs, and to the same god, even. What now? Does it flip a coin or count voices? If I were that god, I'd be mighty irritated my ant-farm was questioning my design.

[JehovahsWitness]

If you believe this god of yours is author to all things, and that all things unfold in accordance with it's intent, you're essentially saying you know better than this god when you pray for an outcome contrary to the one unfolding naturally. The Russians may also be praying for a successful persecution toward the JWs, and to the same god, even. What now? Does it flip a coin or count voices? If I were that god, I'd be mighty irritated my ant-farm was questioning my design.

No, while I believe there is only one True God JEHOVAH The Creator and the Supreme ruler of the universe, I don't believe all prayers automatically are directed to Him. The bible speaks of many god's and many Lords; do those that are praying for the obliteration of JEHOVAH'S Witnesses are not in my opinion praying to the same God I do. I feel confident nobody in Russia is praying to JEHOVAH for the persecution of His Jehovah's own... and if they were I'm sure He'd ignore them.

Was it not Jesus that said "A house divided cannot stand" all those that worship Jehovah and spiritually minded people of good will are united on this.



JW

[Inigo Montoya]

If you believe this god of yours is author to all things, and that all things unfold in accordance with it's intent, you're essentially saying you know better than this god when you pray for an outcome contrary to the one unfolding naturally. The Russians may also be praying for a successful persecution toward the JWs, and to the same god, even. What now? Does it flip a coin or count voices? If I were that god, I'd be mighty irritated my ant-farm was questioning my design.

No, while I believe there is only one True God JEHOVAH The Creator and the Supreme ruler of the universe, I don't believe all prayers automatically are directed to Him. The bible speaks of many god's and many Lords; do those that are praying for the obliteration of JEHOVAH'S Witnesses are not in my opinion praying to the same God I do. I feel confident nobody in Russia is praying to JEHOVAH for the persecution of His Jehovah's own... and if they were I'm sure He'd ignore them.

Was it not Jesus that said "A house divided cannot stand" all those that worship Jehovah and spiritually minded people of good will are united on this.



JW

Your belief is irrelevant regarding what's true. You only suppose your flavor of god-worship is correct. I assume you allow for the possibility you might be mistaken. If it's the case that your sect isn't this god's chosen few, then the Russians ARE potentially praying to not only the right god, but for a right cause. You just have no way of knowing do you? Seems to me your beliefs are far less useful when applied to the real world. You have to speculate outcomes and the desires of an agency you can't verify even exists in the hopes you can shore up a tenuous belief-set as being a worthwhile project for your time and energy.

[JehovahsWitness]

Your belief is irrelevant regarding what's true. [...] .

Not if what I believe is true. The point is some beliefs reflect truth; others do not.

[...] I assume you allow for the possibility you might be mistaken.

Do you?

[Inigo Montoya]

Your belief is irrelevant regarding what's true. [...] .

Not if what I believe is true. The point is some beliefs reflect truth; others do not.

[...] I assume you allow for the possibility you might be mistaken.

Do you?

What's true doesn't require belief, so you're still spinning your wheels. Then follow it up with answering a question with a question. Clever! I'll answer in the hopes you'll cease being silly and engage.

Yes. If I had beliefs regarding supernatural invisible agencies, I'd like to think I'd have enough humility to recognize I might be in error. Fortunately I'm not burdened by defending such things.

[JehovahsWitness]

That involves probability; if the deity prayed to is more like a person, then obviously mathematical probability does not factor.

And since the model for supplication is "not my will but thine", obviously petitionary prayer is not thought of as magic..

This is a good point, asking someone for something doesn't oblige them to obey; I do see God as a person, indeed a loving heavenly Father. Fathers are not obliged to do everything their children ask but that doesn't mean children stop asking their Fathers for things they want or need.

[McCulloch]

[Replying to post 1 by Justin108]

Presuming that God is all-knowing, all-powerful and benevolent, prayer requests are pointless, perhaps even dangerous.
An all-knowing God will know the best course of action. An all-powerful God will be able to perform the best course of action. A benevolent God will make the best choice. So, what possible benefit could come from asking God to do something for someone?
"Please God help those families who have been harmed by the storm you chose to inflict on them. " Really? Do you disagree with God's choices?