Christianity versus Logic

[Divine Insight]

Two Questions for Debate:

1. If logical arguments can be made for why the moral principles of Christianity are good, then why should we need this religion to figure out decent moral principles? Why not just argue for good moral values based on reason alone?

2. And if it's not possible to support Christian morality using logical reasoning, then how can it be said that Christian moral values are "good"?

[Justin108]

That isn't what I said.

And when you selectively quote my posts, that normally isn't all of what I said..

And your logical fallacy is...
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque

I said that Christ could do "far better" without YOUR help.

Then let Christ tell me that, not you.

Divine Insight's conclusion is logically necessary. The only way for God to benefit from the help of a fallible, imperfect human such as yourself is if God were, himself, imperfect. Do you believe God is imperfect?

Helping Christ's agenda would be registering to a religious forum and defending the name and honor of Jesus Christ, and in the process trying to get people on the narrow path to eternal life.

Again, why does God need your help to achieve this? Why can God not defend his own honor? What exactly is it that you're doing that makes you think you're helping people get eternal life? Why would God leave the eternal life of another in your hands? Logically speaking, either God leaves the eternal life of another in your hands (why would he do that?), or what you're doing doesn't actually have any effect on the eternal life of another.

[For_The_Kingdom]

And your logical fallacy is...
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/tu-quoque

Can you articulate how I committed this fallacy?

Divine Insight's conclusion is logically necessary. The only way for God to benefit from the help of a fallible, imperfect human such as yourself is if God were, himself, imperfect. Do you believe God is imperfect?

So again...if I am perfect car mechanic but I still decide to allow my son, who wants to help me fix a car, to help me fix the car. Does that mean I am imperfect? The answer is no...I would only be imperfect if I NEEDED my son's help to fix the car, which I obviously don't.

It is apparent that you people are looking for any loophole you can find to justify your lack of belief. It ain't working now, and it won't work then (judgement day).

Again, why does God need your help to achieve this?

See above (car mechanic). If that doesn't drive the point home, then I don't know what else to tell ya.

Why can God not defend his own honor?

He can, but he would rather have us soldiers out on the front lines do the dirty work..which we gladly do..with pleasure.

What exactly is it that you're doing that makes you think you're helping people get eternal life?

1. Offering rational responses to objections to Christian theism
2. Making positive case for Christianity
3. Clearing up inaccuracies about Orthodox Christian theology
4. Informing the misinformed about various topics as it relates to Christian theology.

And im quite sure i'm leaving out more. Combine all of it together and it should get you to Christ...and if it doesn't, it aint for you.

Why would God leave the eternal life of another in your hands?

He doesn't, but if it is eternal life you seek through Jesus Christ, he will see to it that you get it, if that is what you want...and he can/will accomplish this with/without my help. The question is; do you want it?

Logically speaking, either God leaves the eternal life of another in your hands (why would he do that?), or what you're doing doesn't actually have any effect on the eternal life of another.

Same answer as above.

[Divine Insight]

That isn't what I said.

And when you selectively quote my posts, that normally isn't all of what I said..

I'm not going to waste everyone's time quoting every bit of nonsense you write.

It's far more efficient to just address your crystal clear errors like the following:

...and me determining that Christianity just isn't for you is the conclusion that I gathered after going through that "stuff".

And so what we see here is that you not only think it's your job to try to save souls, but apparently you also think it's your job to decide which souls deserved to be damned.

This is far more than just trying to help Christ out. Apparently you seem to think that you should do his entire job for him including deciding who deserves to be damned.

All you've done here is confirm for the rational secularists precisely why these ancient Jealous-God religions are indeed dangerous. They cause people like yourself to think that you can judge the worthiness of others as if you are this GOD Himself.

So thank you for confirming what the secularists already know to be true.

By the way, according to the Gospel of Luke Jesus Christ has guaranteed my destiny to heaven by Luke 6:37. And ironically that very same scripture places you in grave dangerous of being judged precisely because you are so quick to judge others which is what Jesus makes crystal clear we are not to do.

You open yourself up to being judged by Christ when you judge others. Are you even aware of this?

You should try reading the Bible sometime instead of spending all your time judging whether you think others should be saved or damned. That's actually a big no-no in Christianity. I would think you should know at least that much about the religion before you try to debate for it.

[For_The_Kingdom]

I'm not going to waste everyone's time quoting every bit of nonsense you write.

But I did, when it came to quoting yours. I can't get the same respect in return?

It's far more efficient to just address your crystal clear errors like the following:

I would love to do that, however, if I don't respond to the bulk of your stuff, you (or others) will probably think that the point is granted...and I refuse to give such satisfaction.

And so what we see here is that you not only think it's your job to try to save souls,

Go and make disciples of all nations (Matt 28:19).

but apparently you also think it's your job to decide which souls deserved to be damned.

No, I leave that up to the Almighty. That is beyond my jurisdiction.

This is far more than just trying to help Christ out. Apparently you seem to think that you should do his entire job for him including deciding who deserves to be damned.

Actually, if you reject Christ, you damn yourself...

John 3:18 "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son".

All you've done here is confirm for the rational secularists precisely why these ancient Jealous-God religions are indeed dangerous. They cause people like yourself to think that you can judge the worthiness of others as if you are this GOD Himself.

You are putting up quite a fuss for someone who doesn't believe in God, heaven, hell, judgement, etc. Hmm..

So thank you for confirming what the secularists already know to be true.

Thank you for confirming the fact that you are perishing, according to the scriptures.

By the way, according to the Gospel of Luke Jesus Christ has guaranteed my destiny to heaven by Luke 6:37.

Luke 6:37 37 “Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Hmm..doesn't say anything about you being destined to heaven. Wrong scripture?

And ironically that very same scripture places you in grave dangerous of being judged precisely because you are so quick to judge others which is what Jesus makes crystal clear we are not to do. You open yourself up to being judged by Christ when you judge others. Are you even aware of this?

I leave all judgement to God.

You should try reading the Bible sometime instead of spending all your time judging whether you think others should be saved or damned.

The scriptures are clear, accept Jesus as Lord and Savior and be saved. Reject him and be condemned. That is not me saying it, that is scripture saying it. Now, what side of the field you will be on when it is all said and done is entirely up to you.

That's actually a big no-no in Christianity. I would think you should know at least that much about the religion before you try to debate for it.

Again, much fuss coming from someone who doesn't believe in the stuff...that would be similar to me NOT believing in Santa Claus and someone telling me that if I don't believe in Santa, I am doomed to not have Christmas presents under my tree.

I certainly wouldn't be on message boards debating people who believe in Santa about the lack of existence of Santa.

But hey, to each his own.

[Clownboat]

I see, so that's the argument huh?
In that case, I don't have anything to say that hasn't already been said:

Specified complexity is a concept proposed by William Dembski and used by him and others to promote the pseudoscientific arguments of intelligent design.

A study by Wesley Elsberry and Jeffrey Shallit states: "Dembski's work is riddled with inconsistencies, equivocation, flawed use of mathematics, poor scholarship, and misrepresentation of others' results.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Specified_complexity

Be well.

Nature doesn't naturally produce computers, automobiles, and machinery; intelligent designers do.

If the product of intelligent designers requires intelligence, then so does the intelligence designers.

Please show me a computer, automobile and/or machinery that reproduces biologically with variations. Until that time, I'm saying tomato and your saying "bowling shoes".

I mean, either way it doesn't matter to me. I am just doing my job, for the Kingdom. The Kingdom of God is a coalition of the willing. Either join the team, or get left behind.

I imagine this makes you feel special. Perhaps you need a religion after all to help you cope.

What is amazing is the fact that you guys sit there and try to justify this naturalistic nonsense...all because you don't like the idea of a Creator. Again, anything but the "G" word, right? Universes can pop into existence out of nothing...inanimate matter can come to life...intelligence can come from the mindless....all of those things are cool to believe...but ONCE it comes to God, oh no...we can't have that, can we?

Why do you say this? Why do you think I don't want a god concept to be true? You have quite the imagination, but I am not apposed to a god concept. I just haven't found any of the available ones to be credible yet and ironically, your not helping.

How arrogant it seems to me that a creator god can't make himself known, but little ol FortheKingdom, now he is the guy to do it.

[For_The_Kingdom]

Please show me a computer, automobile and/or machinery that reproduces biologically with variations.

I admit, I can't. But then again, it isn't my contention that that is how it works. Can you show me sentient life coming from nonliving material? That is the naturalistic contention of how it works.

But that is the obvious difference in believing, and proving.

Why do you say this? Why do you think I don't want a god concept to be true? You have quite the imagination, but I am not apposed to a god concept. I just haven't found any of the available ones to be credible yet and ironically, your not helping.

Then you should be a deist, at the very least.

How arrogant it seems to me that a creator god can't make himself known, but little ol FortheKingdom, now he is the guy to do it.

God will reveal himself if you earnestly seek him. Until then, be dazzled by his creation (universe, sentient life, language, etc).

[Divine Insight]

Actually, if you reject Christ, you damn yourself...

So where did I ever say that I reject Christ?

Christ himself says right in the Gospels that it's not important to believe in him, and that not believing in him is NOT the same as rejecting him.

Then he goes on to explain how we can guarantee our own salvation via our own merit. And even says that 99% of the people who make it into heaven do so via their own righteousness.

So you have been doing nothing more than condemning people for not having the gross misunderstanding of Christ that you have.

Who appointed you to be the representative of Christ?

Who appointed you to be the judge of whether someone has rejected or accepted Christ?

The problem with the religion of Christianity is that it has nothing at all to do with Christ and everything to do with the arrogance of Christian zealots.

I agree with Mahatma Gandhi, "I like your Christ but I don't care much for your Christians".

What I reject is YOU, not Christ. Get that straight first. Only after you climb down off your donkey can we have a meaningful conversation about this ancient religion.

This isn't about you or who you decree to have rejected Christ. Your personal opinions on that are totally irrelevant.

[For_The_Kingdom]

Christ himself says right in the Gospels that it's not important to believe in him, and that not believing in him is NOT the same as rejecting him.

All credibility has been lost at this point. Nothing more to say to you.

[Divine Insight]

Christ himself says right in the Gospels that it's not important to believe in him, and that not believing in him is NOT the same as rejecting him.

All credibility has been lost at this point. Nothing more to say to you.

There was never any credibility in your judgemental accusations toward others from the get go. So no credibility as been "lost". You would have needed to have had some level of credibility to begin with before you could lose it.

[Justin108]

Can you articulate how I committed this fallacy?

DI points out that what you claim (or suggest) he said is not, in fact, what he said. Instead of either defending yourself or apologizing, you instead respond in a sort of "well you did that too that one time". This is a tu quoque as the link I provided will explain.

Divine Insight's conclusion is logically necessary. The only way for God to benefit from the help of a fallible, imperfect human such as yourself is if God were, himself, imperfect. Do you believe God is imperfect?

So again...if I am perfect car mechanic but I still decide to allow my son, who wants to help me fix a car, to help me fix the car. Does that mean I am imperfect?

That depends. Do you need your son's help? Or are you just letting him help so he feels better? And suppose your son messes up and breaks something. Will you fix it before handing it back to the client? Or will you give it back in its broken state?

Similarly, if you failed to convert someone to Christianity, will God step in and correct your failures? You failed, for example, in convincing me of the validity of Christianity. Is God going to come down and take over where you failed as the mechanic dad would? Or is he just going to let it slide and leave the task as unsuccessful? Essentially returning the still-broken car back to the client?

Why would God leave the eternal life of another in your hands?

He doesn't, but if it is eternal life you seek through Jesus Christ, he will see to it that you get it

Aren't you the one who's attempting to lead me to Christ? If you successfully do, then I get eternal life. If you fail, I do not get eternal life. In so, my eternal life is (in an albeit indirect manner) in your hands. Why would God leave something like this in your hands? You can fail (well... you are failing). God cannot fail. Why would God leave someone's eternal life in your hands if you can fail, instead of dealing with it himself and guaranteeing success?

...and he can/will accomplish this with/without my help.

He will accomplish this? Even if I don't believe, I'm still going to get eternal life? Well that's nice I guess.

The question is; do you want it?

It's not a matter of not wanting it, it's a matter of not believing it's there.

Suppose I told you there's a billion dollars buried under a tree in France. Are you going to fly to France to look for the billion dollars buried there? Probably not. I expect you don't believe my claim that there is a billion dollars buried in France. But does that mean you don't want the billion dollars? Not wanting something and not believing something are two entirely different things.