JESUS IS NOT YHWH

[onewithhim]

Jesus prayed to YHWH, the Father, not to himself. (E.g., Matthew 26:39,42; John 11:41,42; John 17:1-26.) Would he have been praying to himself?

He continually referred to himself as "God's SON," not YHWH Himself. (John 5:19; John 8:28,29; John 10:36; John 17:1.) Even the Jews who hated him recognized that fact (John 19:7). Can he be his own Son?

He applied Isaiah 61:1,2 to himself, at Luke 4:17-21, showing that he was the one anointed BY YHWH, and sent BY YHWH. There are incontrovertibly two Persons mentioned in the passage, and YHWH is the One calling the shots. The anointed one does what YHWH wants. How could they be the same Person?

Psalm 110 is also applied to Jesus at Acts 2:34,35. He is the "Lord," or Messiah, that YHWH speaks to. Was YHWH talking to Himself?


I think that just these few points would show plainly that Jesus is not YHWH. Can anyone explain how THESE REFERENCES, ABOVE, can possibly agree with the premise that Jesus is YHWH? I'm not asking for other Scriptures to be brought in without commenting ON the verses I am asking about. Please give me your reasoning concerning these particular Scriptures. Thank you.

[brianbbs67]

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Yaahoshua Prayed directly to Himself as He was eXisting BOTH In heaven and On Earth BOTH at the same eXact time.

This is not only illogical it contradicts scripture since Jesus said he prayed not not himself but to The Father. Since The Father (YHWH) and the Son (the word) are not the same person he obviously was not praying to himself. Further the bible says Jesus came to earth, there is no mention of him (Jesus) staying in heaven while he was simultaneously on earth. There is nothing in the bible to indicate Jesus is omnipresent (meaning everywhere at the same time)

It has been explained again and again that YHWH is not a name exclusive to The Father. No where in the N.T. do we read the name YHWH as a predicate of The Father. Thus this argument completely fails. We do, however, have good exegetical reasons to believe the earliest Christians attached the name YHWH to Christ.

Jesus did not "come to earth"; Jesus is the incarnate 2nd P of the Trinity. The Word, according to John's gospel, became flesh (i.e. Jesus), while remaining in heaven.

The arguments you have launched have been answered since the 2nd c.; are you not aware of them?

Thats not quite true. Look at the preface of the KJ or NKJ. It says " The convanent name of God in the Old Testament, represented by the Hebrew consonants YHWH, is translated "Lord" or "God" (using capital letters as shown), as it has been throughout the history of the King James Bible."

[liamconnor]

.
Yaahoshua Prayed directly to Himself as He was eXisting BOTH In heaven and On Earth BOTH at the same eXact time.

This is not only illogical it contradicts scripture since Jesus said he prayed not not himself but to The Father. Since The Father (YHWH) and the Son (the word) are not the same person he obviously was not praying to himself. Further the bible says Jesus came to earth, there is no mention of him (Jesus) staying in heaven while he was simultaneously on earth. There is nothing in the bible to indicate Jesus is omnipresent (meaning everywhere at the same time)

It has been explained again and again that YHWH is not a name exclusive to The Father. No where in the N.T. do we read the name YHWH as a predicate of The Father. Thus this argument completely fails. We do, however, have good exegetical reasons to believe the earliest Christians attached the name YHWH to Christ.

Jesus did not "come to earth"; Jesus is the incarnate 2nd P of the Trinity. The Word, according to John's gospel, became flesh (i.e. Jesus), while remaining in heaven.

The arguments you have launched have been answered since the 2nd c.; are you not aware of them?

Thats not quite true. Look at the preface of the KJ or NKJ. It says " The convanent name of God in the Old Testament, represented by the Hebrew consonants YHWH, is translated "Lord" or "God" (using capital letters as shown), as it has been throughout the history of the King James Bible."

I know Greek and Hebrew. I do not care about the KJ or NKJ. These are outdated translations; though they exceed other translations in poetic prose, they use words and even include entire sentences that are not supported by the manuscripts.

I have made the following argument so many times and it has been misunderstood, but I will make it once more:

In the O.T. the deity that created the world and liberated Israel was given many names. One of them was elohim, which we translate as God. Another was Yahweh which we translate as LORD.

The term Yahweh (or LORD) is usually used in contexts where this deity's covenantal status with Israel is being emphasized.

Sometimes this deity is described as a father, sometimes as a husband, in relation to Israel.

No one disputes this.

But that is the Old Testament.

What matters is how the N.T. uses various words.

The N.T. is in Greek. When it cites the O.T. it typically employs the Greek LXX. Where the LXX substitutes a Greek word for the Hebrew YHWH, it predominantly uses the Greek Kurios. Where the Hebrew Elohim appears, the LXX typically uses the Greek Theos.

The N.T. frequently alludes to the O.T. and situates Jesus within it. Not unfrequently it plugs Jesus into a O.T. slot which was originally YHWH.

How does one read this in any other way than to conclude that Paul and other writers have no problem identifying Jesus with the YHWH of the Bible.

[brianbbs67]

Actually, Adonai is the word substituted for the Tetragrammaton in a lot of places. Means Lord. But you know this.

I wasn't arguing a Theological point, other than YHWH appeared in the text, however described, and other words were substituted.(ties the OT and the NT)

[jgh7]

I'm late to the party and I'm sure this has been gone over many times, but I have to ask.

Jesus prays to God, constantly refers to the Father, says the Father is greater than him. How can they not be two seperate beings?

[JehovahsWitness]

I know Greek and Hebrew.


In the O.T. the deity that created the world and liberated Israel was given many names. One of them was elohim, which we translate as God. Another was Yahweh which we translate as LORD.

If you know Greek and Hebrew you know that

• Elohim = God (which means "mighty/strong one")
  Adonai = LORD (which means "owner/master")
  
  YHWH (also known as the TETRAGRAMMATON) which is generally not translated at all but transilterated, means "To cause to be"

Most English translation have REMOVED the Tetragramaton and replaced it (not translated it or transliterated it , REPLACED it) with another word (usually "Lord" or "God").



JW


RELATED POSTS

Is LORD a translation of YHWH?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 698#872698

Did the Hebrew bible that Jesus (and first century writers) use, contain the Name of God?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 585#822585

[JehovahsWitness]

I know Greek and Hebrew. I do not care about the KJ or NKJ. [...] they use words and even include entire sentences that are not supported by the manuscripts.

elohim, which we translate as God. [...] was Yahweh which we translate as LORD.

Since you are so concerned with support in the original manuscripts, can you tell my why you translate the Tetragrammaton (YHWH) as "Lord" when in Hebrew (ADNY) "Lord" is a completely different word (Adonai) with a completely different meaning? If YHWH is translated as "Lord" what is Adonai translated as?




Can you explain the difference (perhaps using the examples above) between ...

• - a translation
  - a transliteration
  - a substitution

[Tcg]

I know Greek and Hebrew.

What is your training, experience with translating, and knowledge of Greek and Hebrew? Where did you conduct your studies of these languages and why should we consider your word over those who were trusted to conduct the translations you claim are flawed?

Feel free to list the doctorates or other scholastic degrees you have achieved to support this claim. If you have none, don't be afraid to list the books you've read that you think qualifies you to make such a claim.

[JehovahsWitness]

Sometimes this deity is described as a father..., in relation to Israel. No one disputes this.
But that is the Old Testament

If this is so, can you explain why you said the following ...

The O.T. does not equate the name YHWH with "The Father", as the concept of "The Father" did not exist in the O.T.

Emphasis MINE

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 367 by JehovahsWitness]

That's a great question. It will be interesting to see if you get an answer that addresses it directly. I suspect that you won't. I suspect you'll get some more doublespeak. I could be wrong, perhaps it will be triplespeak.

[marco]

Most English translation have REMOVED the Tetragramaton and replaced it (not translated it or transliterated it , REPLACED it) with another word (usually "Lord" or "God").

This is an issue only if you think God prefers to be called Charlie Stewart or some such name. He is God; YHWH is God. The translators haven't removed anything, but called God God.

Can you imagine an almighty being quibbling that humans refer to him as God rather than Charlie? Let's accept that the translators knew how to translate and those with axes to grind know where to grind them.

When God said he is who he is he was being descriptive. I should imagine he would smile -if gods smile - when groups of people address him as: "Dear You who are as you are, I have a favour to ask. " The world has sserious problems. This isn't one of them.