There was a time when he was not

liamconnor · Post by **liamconnor** » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:29 pm

As Arius said famously, there was a time when he was not.

Ignoring the philosophical difficulty, that If God is timeless, putting him in a temporal sequence is misleading; let us rephrase it to "There is a divine dimension at which level God is not a Father to the Son."

That is, God became by an act of creation a father to the son; an act either preceding the creation of the world, or at the same time, or after. There is a level where it is inappropriate to call him a father, for in that dimension, there is nothing for him to correspond to as such.

Is there Scriptural support for this?

Is there Scriptural support for what became the orthodox view (i.e. Trinitarianism)?

What philosophical or exegetical dilemmas arise for both views?

Can either be resolved?

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:20 pm

showme wrote: [Replying to post 3 by Wootah]

Now if Athanasius, who sat with the "beast with two horns like a lamb", Constantine, at Constantine's convened Council of Nicaea, which established the Trinity doctrine, and the Roman Church, and the "beast" received his "authority" by way of the "dragon" (Revelation 13:4), then your Trinity doctrine would be part of the "mark of the beast". Being a brother, such as also a son of hell, or not, those with the "mark of the beast" drink the "wine of the wrath of God" (Revelation 14:9-10). Not a good position to be in.

This is called an ad hominem. That's where a person uses insults as an argument.

I only didn't report it because you probably think it is an argument based on your religious understanding.

Try to use an argument to establish your position on this forum, please.

brianbbs67 · Post by **brianbbs67** » Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:18 pm

Seems to be defined as personal attack. Not an attack. Which this did not appear to be.

https://www.google.com/search?client=sa ... 8&oe=UTF-8

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Sun Feb 18, 2018 5:37 am

[Replying to post 27 by JehovahsWitness]

OK, so you agree we sin against God. How can you pay for sins against God?

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:21 am

[Replying to post 15 by 2timothy316]

I agree that just letting Adam's sin go free would be unjust. Yet note who I said is the true criminal. Really, when we get down to it, we were born with no choice but to die at some point. This is obviously unfair. By Jesus giving what he did, satisfies the injustice on all parties. Jehovah stays a just God by being repaid for the life Adam chose to destroy. He is paid in real lasting currency and not bubbles. The rest of mankind's sins can now be overlooked because after all, what choice did we have? None.

We were not born to die originally. Death is part of the sin of Adam & Eve.

An angel can't pay for sins against God. It's your bubbles scenario right there.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:29 am

Wootah wrote: [Replying to post 27 by JehovahsWitness]

OK, so you agree we sin against God. How can you pay for sins against God?

Notice what I said in an earlier post...

JehovahsWitness wrote:BIBLICALLY sin is lawlessness, it is breaking God's law. So you sin against God by breaking his law. When this is done there is a penalty to pay in direct proportion to the seriousness of the crime.

So when we sin against God we pay by providing compensation in exact equivalent to the damage or loss inflicted by that sin, an equivalent that God himself establishes.

For example: To steal your neighbours donkey is a sin. It is a sin against your neighbour because he no longer has a donkey. It is also a sin against God because it violates the 8th commandments is "Thou shall not steal". So: How can you pay for this sin against God? By giving your neighbour back the donkey and saying your sorry (to God and your neighbour).

Let's take a more serious case: You deliberately murder a man. This is a sin against the man (because he's dead) and against God because it violates the 6th of the Ten Commandments "Thou shalt not murder". How can you pay for this sin against God? God demands your own life in payment?

Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life

JW

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:46 am

Wootah wrote:An angel can't pay for sins against God.

All sins are against God. Whether an angel can legitimately pay for a sin would depend on WHO committed that sin concerned.

The bible principle of "eye for eye" mean that whoever commits a crime must pay the exact equivalent for the crime. Biblically sin is lawlessness (crime) against God so ALL SINS ARE AGAINST GOD. Who pays for the crime/sin will depend not on who that sin was against (all sins are against God) but on who commited the crime.

If a god commits a crime = a god must pay for the crime

If an angle commits a crime = an angel must pay for the crime

If a human commits a crime = a human must pay for the crime

The bible stipulates that each one in fact must pay for his own crime. However there is a seperate concept which testifies to God"s love and desire to reestablish good relations with mankind, namely to provision to atone for sins.

(For more on the principle of "atonement" please continue reading below)

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sun Feb 18, 2018 8:04 am

[Replying to post 35 by JehovahsWitness]

ATONEMENT

The English word atonementis derived from the expression at one and, as applied Biblically, means a covering of sins so someone can again be "at one" its basic thought is of exchange,that which is given in exchange for comparable duplicate of the first. So price of atonement (the price that must be paid before God will overlook or cover over sin) must STILL be the exact equivalent of the damages/losses incurred by the sin in order to be valid.

NOTE: Atonement should not be confused with punishment. According to bible law each person must be punished for the crimes he himself commits. The punishment will depend on divine standards. Once the crime has been paid for justice is considered done and the legal case is closed. Atonement sacrifices on the other hand were appeals to God to cover over certain sins*

*some sins such as murder and adultery could not be atonned for.

ATONEMENT SACRIFICES

The Israelites were commanded to offer animal sacrifices as sin offerings in order to make atonement for the wrong things they did. For example the annual Atonement Day, when Israel's high priest offered animal sacrifices and made atonement for himself, for the other Levites, and for the nonpriestly tribes of Israel. From this we learn that an individual can offer an atonement sacrifice on behalf of someone else.

ANIMALS AND HUMANS ARE NOT EQUAL

Of course animals and humans are not equal nor in the bible is there anything to indicate God views them as such. The fact that God required the Israelites to make atonement sacrifices again and again indicates that those sacrifices were, and could never be, enough to permanently atone for all their sins. Nobody can hope to live forever unless all their sins have been atoned for.

CONCLUSION All sins are against God, the punishment imposed depends on who committed the sin and what decrees are contained in bible law. However God will accept atonement sacrifice and "cover over" and permanelty pardon certain sins if that sacrifice is an exact equivalent to the damages incurred. Such a sacrifice does not have to be offered by the offender but can be offered by someone else on behalf of the offender

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:27 pm

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Wootah wrote: [Replying to post 27 by JehovahsWitness]

OK, so you agree we sin against God. How can you pay for sins against God?
Notice what I said in an earlier post...

JehovahsWitness wrote:BIBLICALLY sin is lawlessness, it is breaking God's law. So you sin against God by breaking his law. When this is done there is a penalty to pay in direct proportion to the seriousness of the crime.
So when we sin against God we pay by providing compensation in exact equivalent to the damage or loss inflicted by that sin, an equivalent that God himself establishes.

For example: To steal your neighbours donkey is a sin. It is a sin against your neighbour because he no longer has a donkey. It is also a sin against God because it violates the 8th commandments is "Thou shall not steal". So: How can you pay for this sin against God? By giving your neighbour back the donkey and saying your sorry (to God and your neighbour).

Let's take a more serious case: You deliberately murder a man. This is a sin against the man (because he's dead) and against God because it violates the 6th of the Ten Commandments "Thou shalt not murder". How can you pay for this sin against God? God demands your own life in payment?

Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, life for life

JW

Yes, but if i attempt to steal a donkey from my neighbour and fail i am still liable for punishment. Your no damage principle is not just.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sun Feb 18, 2018 9:36 pm

[Replying to post 37 by Wootah]

You words have been duly noted.

So, back my questions, I don't see as yet that you have answered them. Do you feel inclined to do so? HERE is the link to the questions I am referring to
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 024#906024

Regards,

JW

Wootah · Post by **Wootah** » Sun Feb 18, 2018 10:31 pm

[Replying to post 38 by JehovahsWitness]

Ok. Mysterious. Now let's see where your road leads.

Adam stole the knowledge of good and evil. The value of which really wasn't that valuable. Learning about death has no value.