What is written

[imhereforyou]

I'm not sure where this goes so please move it to the appropriate place if necessary.

Lately, while listening to cryptid podcasts, I've been hearing a lot of supernatural claims of these creatures acting when someone evokes the name of Jesus. Some say that a true researcher will look at all historical documents when researching such things. I wonder if that includes ALL historical documents/writing or just the bible but that's another topic altogether I suppose.
So let's just use the bible here as that's where most familiarity lies with most people here.

Could the bible be a true and accurate record of a supreme divine being like most people claim or could it be nothing more than the writings of what was witnessed and then attributed to something 'more' later?

[Danmark]

I'm not sure where this goes so please move it to the appropriate place if necessary.

Lately, while listening to cryptid podcasts, I've been hearing a lot of supernatural claims of these creatures acting when someone evokes the name of Jesus. Some say that a true researcher will look at all historical documents when researching such things. I wonder if that includes ALL historical documents/writing or just the bible but that's another topic altogether I suppose.
So let's just use the bible here as that's where most familiarity lies with most people here.

Could the bible be a true and accurate record of a supreme divine being like most people claim or could it be nothing more than the writings of what was witnessed and then attributed to something 'more' later?

You've left out the more likely possibility, that what was written reflects things that never happened at all. You also make a statement that assumes things that are not true. Most people do not believe the Bible is "a true and accurate record of a supreme divine being . . . ." Even just looking at Americans, only 24% believe it is the literal word of God. http://news.gallup.com/poll/210704/reco ... d-god.aspx

Less than one third of the people in the world are even Christian and 16% have no religious faith at all. https://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/wa ... rd-are-ch/

[imhereforyou]

[Replying to post 2 by Danmark]

that what was written reflects things that never happened at all.

Very true. However, I am assuming, for this argument, that something is happening (and thusly something is true) from the myriad of individuals reported sightings - many which have the very same details from people who seemingly are in contact with each other.

Maybe I should include, instead, that what people are seeing/experiencing is something brought upon by their own minds - thought forms as it were...

[Divine Insight]

Could the bible be a true and accurate record of a supreme divine being like most people claim

The Bible cannot be a true and accurate record of a supreme divine being as it is literally written (and this includes any metaphorical interpretations that could actually be supported by the literal texts). That much can be know for certain.

So this possibility does not exist.

,... or could it be nothing more than the writings of what was witnessed and then attributed to something 'more' later?

This is definitely the most realistic explanation. Keep in mind here also that much of what was written may indeed be extremely exaggerated rumors and even outright total fabrications. Once the divine inspiration has been ruled out then there is no longer any reason to treat these texts as though they are the "Gospel Truth".

In other words, once it has been recognized that these stories are nothing more than exaggerated, or totally fabricated, superstitious rumors, then there is simply no longer any need to demand that any claims they make must be 'explained away'. The simple fact that they have already been recognized to be nothing more than exaggerated rumors and or fabrication no further 'explanation' is required.

So theists who continually ask, "How do you explain this,....?", etc., while pointing to the Gospels are doing nothing more than wasting their time. The best way to have a discussion with these theists is to simply place a sign in from of them saying, "These texts are the result of superstitious exaggerations and/or total fabrications" and then just leave allowing this sign to be the answer to any further questions they might have.

This is the only explanation required. It resolves any and all questions concerning the Bible.

No further explanation is required.

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 2 by Danmark]

that what was written reflects things that never happened at all.

Very true. However, I am assuming, for this argument, that something is happening (and thusly something is true) from the myriad of individuals reported sightings - many which have the very same details from people who seemingly are in contact with each other.

Maybe I should include, instead, that what people are seeing/experiencing is something brought upon by their own minds - thought forms as it were...

Actually, there are many important points in the Bible that are reported inconsistently, particularly about Jesus after death:

"How many days did Jesus teach after his resurrection? Most Christians know that “He appeared to them over a period of forty days� (Acts 1:3). But the supposed author of that book wrote elsewhere that he ascended into heaven the same day as the resurrection (Luke 24:51).

When Jesus died, did an earthquake open the graves of many people, who walked around Jerusalem and were seen by many? Only Matthew reports this remarkable event. It’s hard to imagine any reliable version of the story omitting this zombie apocalypse.

The different accounts of the resurrection are full of contradictions like this. They can’t even agree on whether Jesus was crucified on the day before Passover (John) or the day after (the other gospels).

What were the last words of Jesus? Three gospels give three different versions.
Who buried Jesus? Matthew says that it was Joseph of Arimathea. No, apparently it was the Jews and their rulers, all strangers to Jesus (Acts).
How many women came to the tomb Easter morning? Was it one, as told in John? Two (Matthew)? Three (Mark)? Or more (Luke)?
Did an angel cause a great earthquake that rolled back the stone in front of the tomb? Yes, according to Matthew. The other gospels are silent on this extraordinary detail.
Who did the women see at the tomb? One person (Matthew and Mark) or two (Luke and John)?
Was the tomb already open when they got there? Matthew says no; the other three say yes.
Did the women tell the disciples? Matthew and Luke make clear that they did so immediately. But Mark says, “Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.� And that’s where the book ends, which makes it a mystery how Mark thinks that the resurrection story ever got out.
Did Mary Magdalene cry at the tomb? That makes sense—the tomb was empty and Jesus’s body was gone. At least, that’s the story according to John. But wait a minute—in Matthew’s account, the women were “filled with joy.�
Did Mary Magdalene recognize Jesus? Of course! She’d known him for years. At least, Matthew says that she did. But John and Luke make clear that she didn’t.
Could Jesus’s followers touch him? John says no; the other gospels say yes.
Where did Jesus tell the disciples to meet him? In Galilee (Matthew and Mark) or Jerusalem (Luke and Acts)?
Who saw Jesus resurrected? Paul says that a group of over 500 people saw him (1 Cor. 15:6). Sounds like crucial evidence, but why don’t any of the gospels record it?
Should the gospel be preached to everyone? In Matthew 28:19, Jesus says to “teach all nations.� But hold on—in the same book he says, “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans� (Matt. 10:5). Which is it?"

www.patheos.com/blogs/crossexamined/201 ... O9Wjylp.99

[JehovahsWitness]

EASTER CHALLENGE: I love these!


Source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/diction ... tradiction

INTRODUCTION: "WHICH CAME FIRST: A Word on Sequencing"

Many critiques are rather liberal with the word "first"; it should be noted that this expression is rarely employed in the description of the resurrection events and even when it is, is not necessarily used in an absolute sense. It is not possible to give a definitive answer as to which events happened FIRST although an appraisal of all four gospels can provide a probable sequence of events. It's reported Jesus appeared on multiple occassions over a period of over a month to many different individuals and few of the writers explicitly state nothing happened PRIOR (or FOLLOWING) or state the date and time of events, thus questions as to which event came "first" are largely redundant.

WHO WAS WHERE?

The above principle also applies to who is where (and when). Each writer decides who he will focus on and who he will or will not omit to mention. The only way therefore to establish a true contradiction is if one writer catagorically states who was not present. ie "Mary Magdelene was there alone and no one else was present" And then states when this was, which would give us "Mary Magdelene was at the tomb at 10h30 am and nobody was with her. She stayed alone for one half of an hour". This as you can image would make for a rather legalistic presentation which would by necessity lack the drama, beauty and natural flow of narrative the writers may have been looking for.

In any case the fact is, the gospels are simply not written in this style. Thus by saying "Mary was there" there is nothing in the statement that prevents someone else being with her at the time (or later or previously). If one writer says "Mary was there" and another says "Joanna was there" (and another is silent on the matter) we can reasonably conclude, all else being equal that "Mary and Joanna(and possibly others) were at some location at a particular moment in time. No more, no less; hardly enough to establish a contradiction.


CONCLUSION: The Gospels are for the most part, not time/location specific enough to be conductive of "contradictions" and with a little thought the details, for example of the resurrection events, can be reasonably harmonized.



JW


RELATED POSTS

True contradiction: An extended explanation
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 41#p336941

PAST EASTER CHALLENGES
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 61#p890661
Extended list
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 71#p375671

[JehovahsWitness]

"How many days did Jesus teach after his resurrection? Most Christians know that “He appeared to them over a period of forty days� (Acts 1:3). But the supposed author of that book wrote elsewhere that he ascended into heaven the same day as the resurrection (Luke 24:51).

• Where, when, and how did [did the ascencention take place]?
  Mark 16:14-19 - While he and his disciples are seated at a table in or near Jerusalem
  Luke 24:50-51 - Outside, after dinner, and at Bethany and on the same day as the resurrection
  Acts 1:9-12 - At least 40 days after his resurrection, at Mt. Olivet

♦ ANSWER: Jesus ascended to heaven was 40 days after his resurrection from Bethany (near Jerusalem) at the Mount of Olives. Luke gives no timeframe for his statement that Jesus

"But he led them out as far a Bethany" [end quote] so we don't know if he (Luke) is referring to Jesus final encounter with this disciples (in Chap 24:50-53) or another such occassion.


RELATED POST
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 538#814538

[JehovahsWitness]

Cont./.. from post #7

They can’t even agree on whether Jesus was crucified on the day before Passover (John) or the day after (the other gospels).

WHEN DID JESUS DIE?
♦ ANSWER
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 932#893932

When Jesus died, did an earthquake open the graves of many people, who walked around Jerusalem and were seen by many?

WHEN JESUS DIED AS THERE A MASS RESSURRECTION?

♦ ANSWER
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 533#775533




JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Cont./... from post #8 above

How many women came to the tomb Easter morning? Was it one, as told in John? Two (Matthew)? Three (Mark)? Or more (Luke)?

HOW MANY WOMEN VISITED THE TOMB?

• Matthew: Mary Magdalene and the other Mary (28:1)
  Mark: Mary Magdalene, the mother of James, and Salome (16:1)
  Luke: Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and other women (24:10)
  John: Mary Magdalene (20:1)

♦ ANSWER: At least six: two Marys, Salome, Joanna and "other women" (plural, ie an addition minimum two others ).

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 9 by JehovahsWitness]

Was the tomb already open when they got there? Matthew says no*; the other three say yes.

False Matthew 28:2* "And look! a great earthquake had taken place, for Jehovah’s angel had descended from heaven and had come and rolled away the stone, and he was sitting on it". The past perfect use in many English translations depicting an earlier event

• Matthew: [strike]No[/strike] Yes (28:2) *
  Mark: Yes (16:4)
  Luke: Yes (24:2)
  John: Yes (20:1)

WAS THE TOMB ALREADY OPEN WHEN THE WOMEN ARRIVED?
ANSWER: Yes.