How does Jesus's "sacrifice" make any kind of sens

[rikuoamero]

This is for the theists, of course.

Just how does it make sense? What is the debt? Why is there a debt, and how is it to be repaid?

According to standard Christian theology, there was a tree with some fruit that was forbidden to the first humans. The fruit was eaten anyway, and some punishments were handed out.
Surely that should have been the end of it right? But no, according to Christians, someone just HAD to die. Which is strange, considering that nothing of what Adam and Eve did had anything to do with death; the loss of their supposed immortality was not done by them directly, but as a part of the punishment handed out by their god.
Even so...even if we ignore that...how does Jesus dying 'solve' that, or mitigate that?

Would it have worked if Jesus had lain down in a bathtub and slit his wrists? Or hung himself, entirely of his own volition?
I'm guessing no...I'm guessing that what just HAD to be done was for some corrupt priests (were they corrupt? Apparently they were only obeying their god's laws!) called for his execution and had him nailed to a piece of wood, with Jesus not resisting in any way.
So what does that accomplish? What does that show? From what I can see, it only shows that (some) people can kill, are ready and willing to do so, in the name of their god even if (apparently) this "isn't" what God wants (but it is!)

Now, I'm going to guess I'm going to get answers that ignore most, if not all, of what I said. I will be told that the only acceptable sacrifice was Jesus, since he's a sinless, perfect human. Notice that I didn't comment on that part.

[JehovahsWitness]

God waited for thousands of years before sending Jesus to intervene

QUESTION Why has it taken thousand of years to settle the issues raised in Eden?

ANSWER:
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 803#886803

But according to Christianity Jesus didn't die.

Did Jesus REALLY die?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 95#p909895

[rikuoamero]

God waited for thousands of years before sending Jesus to intervene

QUESTION Why has it taken thousand of years to settle the issues raised in Eden?

ANSWER:
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 803#886803

But according to Christianity Jesus didn't die.

Did Jesus really die?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 895#909895

patience is deliberately allowing the needed time in order for something to be done well. To illustrate: The job of an amulance driver is to get to the scene of an incident as fast as possible. What if the fastest route was through a busy market where he would kill many more people but it would cut many minuites of his driving time? In other words, is fast the only consideration?

That's from your link, and you do not go into detail about WHY Jesus apparently had to wait for thousands of years. You give the analogy of an ambulance driver and the reason the driver would give for why he isn't speeding through a market...but no explanation for WHY Jesus had to take his time. Just that he had to.
That's it.

Surely you can understand why I and others will not accept this?

[JehovahsWitness]

The closest analogy I can think of is my ancestor disobeys an order from the leader of a country and is subsequently exiled; said leader wants to have the man's descendants choose whether or not to return to the country

That's a good analogy, and I think it would surprise you, one that is very similar to that which the bible uses. Not necessarily for the ransom itself but certainly for why God has allowed the consequences of Adam's rebellion to roll out over such a long period of time.

TIME TO ALLOW ADAMS CHILDREN A CHOICE

JEHOVAH was earth's original sovereign but Adam rebelled and "left the country" with all his (unborn) children. That was his (Adam's) right. But as you say what if the Children were given an opportunity to return? There are as I said earlier, several considerations as to timescale, but one would have to be that the "children" would have to be adults, old enough to make an informed decision. That would involve allowing enough time to see if the new independent choice of Adam for the human race could indeed result in peace, security and lasting happiness.

COMING OF AGE

If God had intervened while man was still living in caves, in the bronze or even iron ages, if he had stepped in during the dark ages He could have been accused of not giving the human family enough time to "grow up". Surely when the wheel, the printing press, the steam engine, the age of technology and space travel arrives, when we have AI and 4G, humans will finally solve problems such as war, world hunger, racial tensions, sexual crimes, and will live in the paradise God promised... no God necessary.

So God has allowed mankind the thousands of years necessary to prove that without him, humans cannot and will never solve even their most basic problems let alone find a cure for the ultimate disease... death.

CHOOSE YOUR SIDE, CHOOSE YOUR COUNTRY!

• Scripture indicates mankind has arrived at his allotted time. The human family has been deemed to have come of age and the issue as to whether self-rule (independence from God) can lead to happiness and justice for all is settled. Humans have tried every form of government or rulership from absolute monarchs to democracy and everything in between, and yet, we still have crime, war, hunger and people still die of curable diseases.

Now is the time for each individual to choose, God rule under Christ or human rule and institutions. Individuals throughout history have shown by their personal integrity they want God's government not human governments. This is the generation in which every human on the planet will be held accountable for their choice and there will be no fence to sit on.


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

And you can't say that Jesus "died" whilst simultaneously claiming that he's alive and well sitting at the right-hand of God in heaven.

WHAT IS A RESURRECTION?

• Biblically a resurrection is when someone dies but the is subsequently brought back to life. There are 9 such accounts in the bible. These people were all dead ( they "died") but then God gave them back their life (they were later not dead any more). This is what happened to Jesus. He was killed (he "died") and the was raised as a powerful spirit being and is presently sitting at the right hand of God.

QUESTION Did Christ die at the same time (simultaneously) as he was alive?

♦ ANSWER: No FIRST Christ died. He was dead for parts of 3 days, then he was raised back to life. The two events were not simultaneous.

RELATED POSTS

Easter challenge 2018: Resurrection "contradictions"
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 299#908299

[Willum]

[Replying to post 44 by JehovahsWitness]

WHAT IS A RESURRECTION?

Biblically a resurrection is a fairy-tale event when someone dies but the is subsequently brought back to life. There are 9 such accounts in the bible, and countless in other fairy-tale stories. These people were all dead ( they "died") but then God, Asclepius, fairies, and other magical creatures gave them back their life (they were later not dead any more). This is what happened to Jesus. He was killed (he "died") and the was raised as a powerful spirit being and is presently sitting at the right hand of God.

Resurrection is just a word, like a unicorn, it can mean something, without that something actually being.

[JehovahsWitness]

according to you, at the point of death or immediately after, sin free and therefore qualify for everlasting life.

I said nothing of the kind.

There is therefore no way for a human descendant of Adam to live a sinless life and escape death

Jesus came to "free" mankind from this hopeless bondage to sin and death, so the children of Adam could eventually live forever in a sinless state.

Where as the typical / mainstream Christianity says our own death doesn't make us sin free and that's why we need Jesus.

• Yes Jehovah's Witnesses believe that our own death doesn't make us sin free and that's why we need Jesus.

Any questions?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 42 by rikuoamero]

WHY HAS GOD ALLOWED THOUSANDS OF YEARS TO SETTLE THE ISSUES RAISED IN EDEN?

When Adam and Eve rebelled they raised several issues that needed time to be settled.

1. Would the human family be better off living under God's rule or having independent human government?

2. Would any of Adam and Eve's descendants choose of their own free will Jehovah's Sovereignty?

3. Could Satan turn all of mankind away from God as he succeeded in doing with our first parents.

4. Is it possible for a human to stay perfectly faithful to God?

5. Given enough time, can humans solve their own problems (sickness, war, suffering, hatred, famine, conflict and even death... no God required?

Killing the rebels would not have settled any of these questions. Since there were other intelligent beings (millions of angels) observing the outcome, who if the matter were not handled correctly may have concluded that there was some justification to the rebellion, time (much time) had to be allowed to settle these issues once for all time.

While Jesus would be instrumental in providing the definitive answer regarding human integrity, imperfect humans and the development of human society would provide the rest. It is for these reasons Jesus was not sent immediately to provide the ransom (to remedy the situation). It is for these same reasons God has allowed human suffering. It is for this same reason God has permitted evil.


JW


FURTHER: Why Does God Allow Suffering?
https://tv.jw.org/#en/mediaitems/VODBib ... 50_1_VIDEO




RELATED POSTS

Why did God allow so many thousands of years between the rebellion and his ultimate intervention?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 01#p910001

Is God being "slow" or "patient"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 03#p886803

Why did God not destroy Satan IMMEDIATELY when he (Satan) rebelled?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 75#p845975

Why does God allow suffering?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 22#p908722

[1213]

I believe that any sacrifice where human or animal blood is spilt is immoral. Are you ok with blood sacrifices? Do you see them as moral?

People sacrifice every day lot of animals for them to live longer (for food). Perhaps it would be better to not eat animals, but I think it is not wrong.

Jesus used his life for us, that can be seen as sacrifice.

Which was completely unnecessary really.

I meant with Jesus used his life for us that he lived and preached the message that can make person righteous. I think it was important and good thing.

Just imagine it, if Adolf Hitler was on trial for his atrocities and then some Christian guy (say his name is Jack) comes along and says "Hey, everybody, I love Adolf so much that I'll take his place on the electric chair instead." Do you think we'd all be happy with that? That Adolf is going to get off scot free because Jack is willing to go to the chair for him?

I wouldn’t be happy to kill anyone, even if it was Hitler.

In the case of Jesus, I think it is totally different matter. It is true that Jesus got murdered and because of that he got chance to resurrect, which then gave courage to his disciples to continue. It all worked well for the cause, but death itself was not necessary for forgiveness of sins. But it is interesting thing that Jesus says:

Most assuredly I tell you, unless a grain of wheat falls into the earth and dies, it remains by itself alone. But if it dies, it bears much fruit.
John 12:24

The death was accepted, because then Jesus could rise from death and it would bear much fruit. Before that the disciples were afraid, after that they were fearless. And the powerful teaching was, don’t fear death, it has been won.

I for one believe people should step up and take responsibility for their own atrocities.

I agree. But when you are in front of God in last judgment, will you do that?

[Bust Nak]

• Yes Jehovah's Witnesses believe that our own death doesn't make us sin free and that's why we need Jesus.

Any questions?

Does that not contradict directly with "If someone is judged unworthy of future life then when their death comes (however it comes) it will be viewed as payment for the sins that one has committed during their lives."

Are you making the distinction between having paid the wages for one's sin and being sin free?

[JehovahsWitness]

• Yes Jehovah's Witnesses believe that our own death doesn't make us sin free and that's why we need Jesus.

Any questions?

Does that not contradict directly with "If someone is judged unworthy of future life then when their death comes (however it comes) it will be viewed as payment for the sins that one has committed during their lives."

No it doesn't. I used the expression "pay for" as in "punished". A willful murderer who isn't forgiven by God will be judged and held accuntable for his crime. In colloquial english we say he will "pay" for his crime, probably with his life, meaning he will be held accountable and be punished for what he did. Jesus sacrifice was for the elimination of the sinful condition he inherited from Adam which played a part in his committing such a crime. Even having been punished ("paid for") or forgiven for that crime a murderer remains a sinner that will inevitably sin again. At no point then are any descendant of Adam "sin free" because sin is inside of us, as much a part of us as our blood. Our sinful (imperfect) condition is a fundamental part of our human nature.

Are you making the distinction between having paid the wages for one's sin and being sin free?

The biblical expression " the wages for one's sin is death " means, all sin leads to death. The "wages" here is not a metaphor for the ransom. No descendant of Adam can exist without committing a sin (in thought or action) nor can they without the ransom have any hope of being "sin free" (free from imperfection, free from the inclination or the weakness that inevitability leads to sinful thoughts or action.) A person's own death cannot free them from their sinful nature, but it does mean they will no longer to be held accountable (and punishable) for the sinful actions or crimes they committed during their life.

To illustrate, suppose a man is an alcoholic. In a drunken state he breaks someone's window. When he is forced to pay for the window, does that mean he is no longer an alcoholic?

No, but why would that matter when the thing in the way of the reward is the broken window, and not alcoholism? The window is paid for, the matter is considered closed, giving us access to our everlasting life.

It matters because the real problem is the man's alcoholism; unless that fundamental problem is remedied, there will be more broken windows, speed tickets, neglected children... Yes, he's paid for the window, he will not be charged for that particular action twice, but until he is cured of the real problem that lead to the broken window (his alcoholism) he will never lead a long, healthy and happy life.

In the same way, death is the ultimate fine for all the "windows" we broke during our lifetime (ie our individual sins/crimes) but the real problem is our "sinful, imperfect, damaged nature" and unless that is remedied, there will be more sins and everlasting life will never be possible. So a resurrected person will not be held accountable or further punished for what he did during his life, but he will not be "sin free". He may stands without a "police record" as it were, but he is still imperfect and his committing a sin is inevitable, so he is still an "alcoholic" as it were, so his death brought him no closer to eternal life; he needs the ransom as much as anyone else.




JW