Major unanswered issues regarding the “literal flood"

[Zzyzx]

.
In the Head to Head debate between Osteng and Zzyzx, many issues have been raised to cast doubt upon the flood being literally true. The issues have been addressed briefly, shallowly or not at all – while Osteng insists upon expounding upon a “Flood Model” that purports to be “better” than geology and other natural sciences at explaining Earth features, materials, processes, and present and past life forms.

Since the issues have not been successfully addressed, I choose to open them to general discussion. Perhaps there are theists who can help by providing information to support the “literal flood theory” – or theist members who regard the flood tale as less than literally true and who might have helpful comments -- or non-theists who might care to comment on the issues.

Note: Some of the issues raised below are from applicable genesis passages (quoted by Osteng in post #3 of the Head to Head debate). Others are in response to claims made in favor of the “Flood Model”.

There is ONE condition for discussion in this thread – substantiate, substantiate, substantiate – with real world, credible, verifiable information. Conjecture is NOT welcome in this thread. Saying, ”It could have been possible” is NOT acceptable as substantiation (that is known as a “wuss-out”). “Goddidit” and “because the bible says so” do NOT constitute valid arguments in this thread.

Although twenty issues are presented below, I suggest dealing with ONE topic at a time or one per individual post.

Major unanswered issues that cast doubt upon the “literal flood”.

1. How were the animals gathered from around the world to go aboard the ark? No rational explanation has been offered for the gathering of animals worldwide (other than a suggestion that a pair of each “kind” of animal swam, flew, walked, crawled, etc from wherever they lived worldwide to get aboard) and no credible explanation was offered for their return to their native habitats after the flood and cruise -- all without transportation

2. How were thousands or millions of animals fed and cared for on the ark? There has been no satisfactory explanation how thousands or millions of animals aboard a boat could be fed and cared for by eight people during a one-year voyage – with 100% survival to insure that species did not become extinct.)

3. How did Noah build the ark? It has not been shown to be feasible for primitive people without known experience to build a boat larger than any wooden boat known to exist (as long as one and a half football fields and as tall as a five story building -- and 1.5 times as long as the longest wooden ships known to have been built) – during an era when tools were probably stone and when the wheel was unknown (yet millions of pounds of wood were supposed cut, transported, hewn and placed).

4. How did fresh water and salt water fish survive the flood? Survival of freshwater and salt water fish through drastic habitat changes has been addressed only superficially – with the claim that “no provision is necessary because they live in water” and “fish could have been different before the flood”. No evidence has been presented that fish were significantly different a few thousand years ago, that the evolved rapidly into present form and that they then stopped evolving rapidly.

5. How did plants survive a year of being flooded? Survival of plants after a year of flooding has been addressed very superficially by citing means of reproduction NOT survival of plants per se – with conjecture to indicate that restoration of the world’s vegetation happened. No reasoning or evidence has supported the contention. Any plant that could not survive and/or reproduce after a year of flooding would be extinct.

6. How could a dove “return with an olive leaf”? Instantaneous sprouting of an olive leaf just in time to be found by a dove has been weakly discussed – and the very un-dovelike behavior (not shown to be characteristic of doves) of plucking a leaf and returning to the ark has not been shown to be anything other than a children’s bible story.

7. How could fossils have been sorted as thoroughly as we know them to exist in present rock strata if all sedimentary rock was deposited during the flood? No rational answer has been offered to the question of how fossils were sorted into distinct layers (as known to geologists) if all life forms were wiped out at the same time.

8. Unsupported Claim: “The mountains were lower before the flood” has been claimed with NO indication that the mountains were substantially different a few thousand years ago – and no explanation of how the mountains grew suddenly then slowed or stopped growing. This is diametrically opposed to what is understood by those who study the Earth and nature.

9. Unsupported Claim: “The atmosphere was a blanket of water before the flood and it never rained” – (even though people obviously lived on Earth before the flood) is pure conjecture with NO substantiation whatsoever.

10. Unsupported Claim: “The climate was more moderate before the flood” has been claimed. When challenged, the claim was “supported” by citing data relating to climate 50 Million years ago rather than 5 Thousand years ago. AND, the use of such inappropriate and inapplicable data was irrationally “defended” as being representative.

11. Unsupported Claim: “The oceans were much smaller before the flood” is another claim that is made with no substantiation at all. No credible hydrologist, geologist, oceanographer has ever (to my knowledge) proposed that oceans were significantly smaller a few thousand years ago.

12. Unsupported Claim: “The continents were all together before the flood” (unsubstantiated). This represents a distortion of geological studies (based upon actual and accurate measurements) that conclude that continents are moving (on the order of centimeters per year) in relation to one another and have occupied different configurations in the past (millions of years ago – not thousands of years ago).

13. Unsupported Claim: “Water for the flood came from vast caverns ten miles below the Earth’s surface”. NO evidence has been presented that such caverns existed or that they were filled with water. The claim is pure conjecture without even an attempt to provide support or verification.

14. Unsupported Claim: “Water ‘gushing’ out of the [supposed] caverns shoved continents apart”. No evidence is provided to even suggest this is true or that it is possible. The rate of movement apart of North America and Europe would have had to be a minimum of approximately ten miles per day (when actual movement is measured at a few centimeters per year).

15. Unsupported Claim: “Gushing water” formed the mid-oceanic ridges, carved the edges of continents, eroded materials and produced all of the Earth’s sedimentary rocks, ejected material to form comets, (and did not disturb the ark in its journey).

16. Unsupported Claim: “The Earth’s sedimentary rocks were deposited during the flood” – thousands and tens of thousands of feet of sedimentary rocks supposedly deposited in less than a year.

17. Unsupported Claim: “Dinosaurs and humans existed at the same time” (up until the flood). No answer is offered to explain why dinosaur and human fossils are never found in the same rock strata. All studies in anthropology, geology, paleontology, paleobiology, and other natural sciences (based on actual examination of conditions and materials) conclude that dinosaurs were extinct for approximately 65 Million years before Humans appeared. (Emotionally disputed by creationists based on scripture only).

18. Unsupported Claim: “Coal was formed rapidly” [during the flood]. This contrasts with the process of coal formation well known to geologists as well as mining engineers (people actually involved with the subject) – a sequence from peat, to lignite, to bituminous, to anthracite – a slow process.

19. No explanation has been provided for the accumulation of thick layers of salt and gypsum among layers of other sedimentary rocks. Both salt and gypsum are “evaporites” – materials deposited when transporting waters evaporate (as in the case of Great Salt Lake and Bonneville Salt Flats). Evaporites are formed very slowly and NOT by flooding.

20. No explanation has been provided for the presence of limestone – which consists of small, often microscopic, calcium-rich body parts of marine organisms. Deposits of limestone are known to geologists to require warm water and to be a very slow process. Deposits of limestone layers hundreds or thousands of feet thick did NOT occur in a year or in a flood condition.

21. At least twenty separate “miracles” would be required to “explain” the above – since no rational reasons, reasoning, or evidence has been provided to substantiate any of the claims beyond “it could have been possible” (if enough unsupported assumptions are accepted).

22. If “miracles” are invoked to “explain” how the flood was literally true, this is no longer a debate and is no longer scientific – it is pure theology and guesswork opposing the real world and science. “Goddidit” and “miracles” void any claim that reasoning, knowledge, experience, observation, measurement, validation have formed the basis of ideas, theories, or arguments presented.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 79 by Revelations won]

To your knowledge...
Well then allow me to edify you:

The flood story originated as a children's story.

Imagine what the proud papa would think if he knew you took the story he made to sooth his children to sleep, as a high reality! LOL.

So predating anything remotely Biblical (that can be proven), are the bedtime stories of Ziusudra and Utnapishtim. That the Hebrew and thus Jews and Christians mistook them as real, really says a great deal.

On the bright side there probably were floods after long rains in Anatolia, (Turkey), that resulted in these stories.

Or if you choose to believe these stories, will you also chose to believe the gods responsible were Anu, Enki and so on?

You can stop arguing the logistics of baby animals when you understand that it was a childrens' story.

Consider it revealed.

[Revelations won]

Dear Willum,

Sorry you could not come up with a more complete answer to my response. If you are afraid to respond point by point with a better verified explanation for each point that is understandable.

By the way can you give the date and author of this alleged bedtime story for children as well as your documented sources?

I haves used the historical account as recorded.

I have not seen any historical account from that time, either sacred or profane, presented by you.......

Regards,
RT

[JehovahsWitness]

22. If miracles are invoked to explain how the flood was literally true, this is no longer a debate and is no longer scientific it is pure theology and guesswork opposing the real world and science.

I don't know of anyone that believes the biblical account as being a historical event that suggests it was not miraculous. To debate a miracle on purely scientific grounds is like analyzing a painting by what it tastes like, entirely the wrong approach.

Whether supernatural events (miracles) are indeed part of the "real world" (ie the reality of our existence) is entirely a matter of opinion, and while the original poster has every right to dictate that all participants accept the presupposion of the truth of naturalism that doesn't make such a bias approach true. That said, whole miracles by definition rest outside of the realm of science, there may well be certain features of the story that might be considered by some as being supported by certain scientific observations (geology anthropology, zoology, oceanography etc..) depending on how such data is interpreted.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 82 by Revelations won]

WHAT are you talking about?
Are you seriously comparing two of every baby animal walking from Antarctica and places to fit in a boat much much smaller than the Titanic, vs. someone made it up?

Are you seriously saying baby animals getting together in pairs, is more likely than a children's story?!

How?

What possible rationale could you possibly have to justify it?
Does it prove something in geology?
Does it even justify anything from the Bible?

Here let's compare:
Impact of a children's story: No inbreeding, not geological effects, no mass extinctions, ~5000 years ago, and more. Impact on the Bible, colossal.

Impact of a flood:
Mass extinctions, surviving sea-going peoples, all the little babies surviving to adulthood, severe geological changes, severe inbreeding, the end of civilization. Impact on the Bible, none.

So, what exactly are you trying to get at? What more complete answer could I give?

[liamconnor]

At nine pages, I am sure my couple of points have already been made, but repetition may be needed:

1) To preemptively discount supernatural intervention in an episode which clearly says "God said..." is of course nonsense. It would be like saying, "Prove to me that Jesus was raised from the dead by natural means."

2) The OP should include one more qualification: only those who hold to a literal world-wide flood should debate the 'religious' side. This would of course dismiss persons from the conversation like myself, who hold that the account to be good old fashion story telling, never intended to be taken with the same kind of historical weight as the historical books of the bible.

[Revelations won]

Question 3:

3. How did Noah build the ark? It has not been shown to be feasible for primitive people without known experience to build a boat larger than any wooden boat known to exist (as long as one and a half football fields and as tall as a five story building -- and 1.5 times as long as the longest wooden ships known to have been built) during an era when tools were probably stone and when the wheel was unknown (yet millions of pounds of wood were supposed cut, transported, hewn and placed).

Answer:

The question is speculative at best. i.e. the question assumes without evidence that the only tools available to Noah were stones and that a wheel did not exist.

The ark was constructed of “gopher wood�. It appears that this special tree and it’s properties are extinct today. This wood must have had certain qualities fitted to the building of the Ark.

Was it feasible for man to build such a vessel? consider the following

Approx. 1600 years B.C.
Jared 2:16 And the Lord said: Go to work and build, after the manner of barges which ye have hitherto built. And it came to pass that the brother of Jared did go to work, and also his brethren, and built barges after the manner which they had built, according to the instructions of the Lord. And they were small, and they were light upon the water, even like unto the lightness of a fowl upon the water.
17 And they were built after a manner that they were exceedingly tight, even that they would hold water like unto a dish; and the bottom thereof was tight like unto a dish; and the sides thereof were tight like unto a dish; and the ends thereof were peaked; and the top thereof was tight like unto a dish; and the length thereof was the length of a tree; and the door thereof, when it was shut, was tight like unto a dish.
18 And it came to pass that the brother of Jared cried unto the Lord, saying: O Lord, I have performed the work which thou hast commanded me, and I have made the barges according as thou hast directed me.

It appears that these people built special barges after the manner which the Lord directed.


Nephi 17: 8 And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto me, saying: Thou shalt construct a ship, after the manner which I shall show thee, that I may carry thy people across these waters.
9 And I said: Lord, whither shall I go that I may find ore to molten, that I may make tools to construct the ship after the manner which thou hast shown unto me?
10 And it came to pass that the Lord told me whither I should go to find ore, that I might make tools.
11 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, did make a bellows wherewith to blow the fire, of the skins of beasts; and after I had made a bellows, that I might have wherewith to blow the fire, I did smite two stones together that I might make fire.


16 And it came to pass that I did make tools of the ore which I did molten out of the rock.
17 And when my brethren saw that I was about to build a ship, they began to murmur against me, saying: Our brother is a fool, for he thinketh that he can build a ship; yea, and he also thinketh that he can cross these great waters.
18 And thus my brethren did complain against me, and were desirous that they might not labor, for they did not believe that I could build a ship; neither would they believe that I was instructed of the Lord.
19 And now it came to pass that I, Nephi, was exceedingly sorrowful because of the hardness of their hearts; and now when they saw that I began to be sorrowful they were glad in their hearts, insomuch that they did rejoice over me, saying: We knew that ye could not construct a ship, for we knew that ye were lacking in judgment; wherefore, thou canst not accomplish so great a work.

1 Nephi 18:1 And it came to pass that they did worship the Lord, and did go forth with me; and we did work timbers of curious workmanship. And the Lord did show me from time to time after what manner I should work the timbers of the ship.
2 Now I, Nephi, did not work the timbers after the manner which was learned by men, neither did I build the ship after the manner of men; but I did build it after the manner which the Lord had shown unto me; wherefore, it was not after the manner of men.

3 And I, Nephi, did go into the mount oft, and I did pray oft unto the Lord; wherefore the Lord showed unto me great things.
4 And it came to pass that after I had finished the ship, according to the word of the Lord, my brethren beheld that it was good, and that the workmanship thereof was exceedingly fine; wherefore, they did humble themselves again before the Lord.

In the above account we observe that Nephi constructed this ship after the manner which the Lord directed. He was also shown where he could find ore to make tools with and also made a forge, using animal skin bellows to build tools to make the ship. I think it interesting that he admits that the design was not after the manner of man’s design, but was built as instructed by the Lord..

Genesis 6:14 Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch. 15 And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits. 16 A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt thou make it.

From the above it is obvious that the design was not Noah’s, but the design was after the manner as the Lord directed.

Below is yet another example of the Divine architect as he directed the construction of the Ark of the Covenant.

Exodus 25: 1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, 2 Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring me an offering: of every man that giveth it willingly with his heart ye shall take my offering. 3 And this is the offering which ye shall take of them; gold, and silver, and brass, 4 And blue, and purple, and scarlet*, and fine linen, and goats' hair, 5 And rams' skins dyed red, and badgers' skins, and shittim wood, 6 Oil for the light, spices for anointing oil, and for sweet incense, 7 Onyx stones, and stones to be set in the ephod, and in the breastplate. 8 And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them. 9 According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it. 10 And they shall make an ark of shittim wood: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof, and a cubit and a half the height thereof. 11 And thou shalt overlay it with pure gold, within and without shalt thou overlay it, and shalt make upon it a crown of gold round about. 12 And thou shalt cast four rings of gold for it, and put them in the four corners thereof; and two rings shall be in the one side of it, and two rings in the other side of it. 13 And thou shalt make staves of shittim wood, and overlay them with gold. 14 And thou shalt put the staves into the rings by the sides of the ark, that the ark may be borne with them. 15 The staves shall be in the rings of the ark: they shall not be taken from it. 16 And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee. 17 And thou shalt make a mercy seat of pure gold: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof. 18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat. 19 And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof. 20 And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be. 21 And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee. 22 And there I will meet with thee, and I will commune with thee from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubims which are upon the ark of the testimony, of all things which I will give thee in commandment unto the children of Israel. 23 Thou shalt also make a table of shittim wood: two cubits shall be the length thereof, and a cubit the breadth thereof, and a cubit and a half the height thereof. 24 And thou shalt overlay it with pure gold, and make thereto a crown of gold round about. 25 And thou shalt make unto it a border of an hand breadth round about, and thou shalt make a golden crown to the border thereof round about. 26 And thou shalt make for it four rings of gold, and put the rings in the four corners that are on the four feet thereof. 27 Over against the border shall the rings be for places of the staves to bear the table. 28 And thou shalt make the staves of shittim wood, and overlay them with gold, that the table may be borne with them. 29 And thou shalt make the dishes thereof, and spoons thereof, and covers thereof, and bowls thereof, to cover withal: of pure gold shalt thou make them. 30 And thou shalt set upon the table shewbread before me alway. 31 And thou shalt make a candlestick of pure gold: of beaten work shall the candlestick be made: his shaft, and his branches, his bowls, his knops, and his flowers, shall be of the same. 32 And six branches shall come out of the sides of it; three branches of the candlestick out of the one side, and three branches of the candlestick out of the other side: 33 Three bowls made like unto almonds, with a knop and a flower in one branch; and three bowls made like almonds in the other branch, with a knop and a flower: so in the six branches that come out of the candlestick. 34 And in the candlestick shall be four bowls made like unto almonds, with their knops and their flowers. 35 And there shall be a knop under two branches of the same, and a knop under two branches of the same, and a knop under two branches of the same, according to the six branches that proceed out of the candlestick. 36 Their knops and their branches shall be of the same: all it shall be one beaten work of pure gold. 37 And thou shalt make the seven lamps thereof: and they shall light the lamps thereof, that they may give light over against it. 38 And the tongs thereof, and the snuffdishes thereof, shall be of pure gold. 39 Of a talent of pure gold shall he make it, with all these vessels. 40 And look that thou make them after their pattern, which was shewed thee in the mount.


From Exodus 25 we observe that the Lord not only was the architect of ships, but also of the ark of the covenant as well. Moses was given the plans for the ark of the covenant while upon the mount when he communed with the Lord according to verse 40.

[Tcg]

1) To preemptively discount supernatural intervention in an episode which clearly says "God said..." is of course nonsense.

Not for rational people. Pretending that adding "God said..." to the story makes it rational, is nonsense. This is as convincing as saying it must be real magic because the magician said, "abracadabra".

"Hey, cutting a person in half and then putting them back together is impossible!"

"The dude said, abracadabra."

"You're right. It must be real then."

"Sure. With magic, all things are possible."

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 86 by Revelations won]

The ark was constructed of “gopher wood�. It appears that this special tree and it’s properties are extinct today.

How convenient. Much like the original manuscript of the Quran, or insert religious relic here, the item or materials in question are nowhere to be found, and thus, they cannot be tested as to their properties.

Was it feasible for man to build such a vessel?

In all my years on this planet, I am not aware of anyone who has proposed that Noah used steel and other similar modern materials to build his boat. Even Ken Ham, when he built his 'replica' used wood, but even he had to cheat by using modern shipbuilding methods (given the unlikelihood of secular authorities to allow construction to go on if modern safety equipment and tools were not used).

Jared 2:16

I see you're now quoting from the Book of Mormon. Much like the Quran, the tools Joseph Smith claimed somehow magically enabled him to translate the golden plates are nowhere to be found, as are the plates themselves.

It appears that these people built special barges after the manner which the Lord directed.

No it does NOT appear. This is just text in a story whose authenticity cannot be verified.

In the above account we observe that Nephi constructed this ship after the manner which the Lord directed. He was also shown where he could find ore to make tools with and also made a forge, using animal skin bellows to build tools to make the ship. I think it interesting that he admits that the design was not after the manner of man’s design, but was built as instructed by the Lord..

Or that Joseph Smith claimed via translation as to what this Nephi person is saying.
Not only can we not verify that the translation of the Book of Mormon is accurate (since we don't have either the golden plates or the eye-glasses supposedly used to translate them), we cannot verify that what this Nephi person supposedly says is true.

From the above it is obvious that the design was not Noah’s, but the design was after the manner as the Lord directed.

Anyone with any knowledge of animal care will know that such a design is woefully inadequate to take care of animals. Remember what I said before about animals in Dublin Zoo? That's TWENTY EIGHT HECTARES of land for just over 400 animals, and you're proposing that this tiny boat (in comparison) with ONE window and no room to exercise and a tiny staff (eight) could somehow have ensured the survival of the animals?

Below is yet another example of the Divine architect as he directed the construction of the Ark of the Covenant.

Please explain how you are able to identify that as truly being of divine architecture? I read a design for an object yes, a very precise design, it goes into detail...but how do you know its of a god versus human origin?

From Exodus 25 we observe that the Lord not only was the architect of ships, but also of the ark of the covenant as well.

No we do not. Within the narrative of the story, yes what you said is true, but the difference between you and I is that I don't take story narratives as being the same thing as the reality I live in right off the bat.
In the real world, did Joseph Smith translate ancient golden plates using magical spectacles/seeing stones? If you answer yes to that question, how do you verify it, show it to be true without the plates and translation instruments?

[Revelations won]

Dear rikuoamero,

I understand that in your case being an atheist that you do not accept anything without verifiable physical evidence.

A spiritual confirmation from the servants of God or of God himself would not satisfy you, because you fail to ask in the prescribed manner as outlined by the Apostle James.

Maybe a good exercise for you would be to write down all of the latter day prophesies found in Isaiah 49, Jeremiah, Joel, Daniel and Revelation.

Normally I would counsel people to make preparation to deal with the prophesied calamities, but in you case I will forgo any such advice, since you don't believe them anyhow.

I would suggest you make a checklist of those many prophesied events so that you can check off each one as it transpires. I look forward to your report over the next ten years.

Kindest regards,
RW

[JoeyKnothead]

From Post 89:

...
A spiritual confirmation from the servants of God or of God himself would not satisfy you, because you fail to ask in the prescribed manner as outlined by the Apostle James.

Don't that beat all, a "spiritual confirmation" can't be had for folks can't put them the right words, in the right order, in the right way, and, 'parently, lacking sufficient religious bias, just to ask.

That's as compellin' an argument as me tellin' the pretty thing I wasn't drunk cause it is, she didn't ask me if I was. Me dealing unholy rains on the potted plants has nothin' to do with it!


Sounds like your god is a grammar nazi. (little 'n', I'm not accusing folks of being haters or nothing like that)

...
I look forward to your report over the next ten years.

Well don't that beat all, we gotta wait us ten years... a whole danged decade... in order to confirm your claims.

But that's a good play Cotton. We can rely on folks dying, and me dying, and him dying, and them dying, and all manner of news, just so's it is, we don't hafta confirm our claims for us a whole 'nother ten years.

Current state of Christian apologetics?

In ten more years, you'll see I'm right about all this, it's just, and aggravatin', but it's gonna take me ten years to show ya how right it is I am on this.