Why is god in hiding?

[JJ50]

If the Biblical god exists why does it hide away, making its existence a matter of faith not reality?

Those who claim there is evidence that god exists, can never provide that evidence.

[alexxcJRO]

You present a false choice dilemma here, but I'll deal with it later

Romans 1: 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him

1 Timothy 1: 17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen

Hebrews 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; 25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; 26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. 27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible

So you can see that there are four different books with the same consistent message: the God of the Bible exists, and He is invisible.

As to the error in logic: There are other possible answers to your very limited conclusion about lying. I can say that because it is possible for a person to be wrong about something, and not be lying.

You see, the accusation of "lying" speaks of intention, and arrogates unto the accuser the role of omniscience. While everyone has the right to possess incorrect beliefs, it is not correct to equate the expression of wrong beliefs with deliberate deception.

For that reason, I reject your question as a false choice dilemma. It is like the old con game, "Heads I win, tails, you lose."

If i am not lying then i have a genuine disbelief that God(Yahweh) exists.

Q: Do you believe genuine disbelief in God(Yahweh) exists?(Yes/No question)

"Hebrews 11: 6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

So you seem to be asking an unconditional question, but the statement is quite conditional in Hebrews: God rewards those who DILIGENTLY SEEK HIM, and BELIEVE THAT HE EXISTS"


2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance

So, you present two false choice dilemmas here, and that is because you truncate the expressed purposes of one knowing about Him: so that one can repent of sins. They are interconnected, and to split them is to unintentionally ask loaded questions. But know for sure, I do not accuse you of doing that viciously nor intentionally

Hebrews 11:6 New International Version (NIV)
"6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him."

Q: Wait What?!!!!! ))
So in order to be convinced God exists one must believe God exists before he is convinced God exists.
Sorry does not make any sense.

Also beliefs are not choices. It's called doxastic involuntarism.
The notion that humans can, at will, pick and choose their beliefs is incredibly misguided. One is persuaded or compelled to belief. The Bible notion that someone can just elect to start believing in any god is simply wrong and misguided.



How hard is to answer simple questions.

Please don't avoid the questions. Please answer them.

Q: Is God(Yahweh) an omnipotent, omniscient, perfectly good being? (Yes/No question)
Q: Does God(Yahweh) want to have a personal relationship with me? (Yes/No question)
Q: Does God(Yahweh) want for me to believe in him?(Yes/No question)

[By Grace]

[Replying to post 81 by alexxcJRO]

If i am not lying then i have a genuine disbelief that God (Yahweh) exists.

I have no illusions about the sincerity of your belief, but sincerity of one's beliefs can never be the proof of existence or non existence of God. That is because the beliefs of one's position are sometimes at odds with the facts listed in the Bible.

Q: Do you believe genuine disbelief in God(Yahweh) exists?(Yes/No question)

Basically, I do, but the question you ask has the adjective "genuine" modifying disbelief. so unless and until you define the meaning of "genuine" as you use it in the sentence, I will have to take a pass on the question.

Hebrews 11:6 New International Version (NIV)
"6 And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him."

Q: Wait What?!!!!! Smile))
So in order to be convinced God exists one must believe God exists before he is convinced God exists.
Sorry does not make any sense. Cool

But you are then arguing with the writer of Hebrews, not me.

Let me put it to you differently. You seem to be demanding that the Creator of the Universe "preforms for you a reason" why you should believe in Him. That is preposterous as well as very ego-centric, and short sighted.

More than likely, there is absolutely ZERO things that God could do to cause you to believe in Him; I understand that, so I will not ask you to provide me with an answer.

Since that is most likely the best description of the case of your particular disbelief, and if we could quantify the amount of special attention you need to change your heart and attitude whereby you would firmly and forever believe that He exists, we could say that it is X. Are you with me, so far?

What then would be the case if your neighbor says to God, You gave alexxcJRO this X and it caused him to believe in you. But that is not enough for me. I want you to do "X +1".

Then his neighbor demands "X+2" and so on down the line. What then is preventing you from saying to God (in violation of your contract) "Wait! I changed my mind! I now want "X+234"?

When does it stop, alexxcJRO?

The question is really making the Creator of the Universe into your personal puppet, and He is NEVER going to let you be His Master. That is what Satan tried, and he was kicked from heaven.

Also beliefs are not choices. It's called doxastic involuntarism.

I do not subscribe to what Hume says, so I will tell that to God, the next time I talk to Him.

But this is what the Bible says about that:


Ephesians 1: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins....

That makes more sense to me than either Hume, or Locke

As long as you do want simple answers to your questions, I will answer. But the answers I give should not be construed as anything more than simple answers. I say that because sometimes there is often a hidden agenda with "simple questions".

Q: Is God(Yahweh) an omnipotent, omniscient, perfectly good being? (Yes/No question)

Yes, He is

Q: Does God(Yahweh) want to have a personal relationship with me? (Yes/No question)

Yes, He does

Q: Does God(Yahweh) want for me to believe in him?(Yes/No question)

Yes, he does.

ALL of those (as far as the questions go) are answered in the affirmative in Scripture.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 82 by By Grace]

Let me put it to you differently. You seem to be demanding that the Creator of the Universe "preforms for you a reason" why you should believe in Him. That is preposterous as well as very ego-centric, and short sighted.

It is not preposterous. You say that God wants us to believe. But at the same time he knows what is preventing us from believing. He also knows what it would take to convince us to believe. If we still don't believe then he has done nothing to help us despite the dire consequences of non-belief that he imposes. It is logical to conclude that he doesn't really care or, more probably, he doesn't really exist.

More than likely, there is absolutely ZERO things that God could do to cause you to believe in Him; I understand that, so I will not ask you to provide me with an answer.

I don't know what would convince me to believe again. Everyone has different thresholds for believing in the extraordinary. All I know is that the things that have convinced some people to believe in gods have not convinced me. It's silly to speculate on what might or might not work. Only the actual experience will determine that. Let's say that I suggest that having all of my dead relatives return along with a few historical figures would convince me. Because this is just a hypothetical event I, and no doubt others, will consider it and look for other explanations that would preclude it from being valid. That's only natural, but believers will extrapolate that to conclude that nothing would work. What I am saying is that it would take the actual occurrence of the event before I would know if I was convinced or not. As I said before, God should know what it would take and if he truly wants me to believe in him that it is a simple matter for him to make it happen.

So far, nothing I have seen or heard has persuaded me over the threshold into belief in gods.

Since that is most likely the best description of the case of your particular disbelief, and if we could quantify the amount of special attention you need to change your heart and attitude whereby you would firmly and forever believe that He exists, we could say that it is X.

Now that is preposterous. It is like asking someone to lift themselves off the ground by pulling up on their shoelaces. You are suggesting that belief will come when you simply brainwash yourself into believing. My brain has not accepted the alleged evidence for your God. I can't help that. Belief is not simply a matter of choice. If believers honestly reflected on the source of their belief I am confident that they would discover that it was fed to them from a time when their minds were vulnerable to manipulation. Everything else is post-hoc rationalisation.

[By Grace]

[Replying to post 83 by brunumb]

ByGrace
Let me put it to you differently. You seem to be demanding that the Creator of the Universe "preforms for you a reason" why you should believe in Him. That is preposterous as well as very ego-centric, and short sighted.

It is not preposterous. You say that God wants us to believe. But at the same time he knows what is preventing us from believing. He also knows what it would take to convince us to believe. If we still don't believe then he has done nothing to help us despite the dire consequences of non-belief that he imposes. It is logical to conclude that he doesn't really care or, more probably, he doesn't really exist.

You are ignoring the facts of free will and the universal revelation of the handiwork of God as a testimony of His being and greatness.
This is but one of several examples, which morror what paul writes in Ronams 1:

Psalm 8:1 O Lord our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. 2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger. 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

To rule out that (or to ignore it) is to make God the Great Puppeteer Just as 1/3 of the angels in heaven to rebel, and the other 2/3 chose to remain loyal to God, not following the Archangel Lucifer, so also does God permit the greater creation, humanity (but for a time the lesser creation) the free choice of rebellion or obeying. At one time, EVERY knee will bow in heaven and on earth to give God His full due as sovereign Lord, the choice for humanity will be if their due obeisance is willful and wonderful, or forced and frightening.

So far, nothing I have seen or heard has persuaded me over the threshold into belief in gods.

Thank you for your honesty, and your testimony.

by grace Since that is most likely the best description of the case of your particular disbelief, and if we could quantify the amount of special attention you need to change your heart and attitude whereby you would firmly and forever believe that He exists, we could say that it is X.

Now that is preposterous.

I will admit that it is somewhat of a stretch. However, from your answer you actually did fill in the definition of your particular " X-factor" so I really was not too far off.

Now that is preposterous. It is like asking someone to lift themselves off the ground by pulling up on their shoelaces. You are suggesting that belief will come when you simply brainwash yourself into believing. My brain has not accepted the alleged evidence for your God.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith. 8 By faith Abraham...........

Hebrews 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; 16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. 17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears. 18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest...

Mark 9: 23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth. 24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief. 25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him. 26 And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead....

Romans 3:1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. 3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? [/b]

According to what the Bible says, you are simply fighting a battle with unbelief, and in reality, that is a spiritual battle, which you cannot win on your own terms, and with your own intellect; therefore you need a force greater than yourself to win the battle for you.

You may not recognize it, but the father of the dead girl ALSO had his own "X factor", and that was his daughter's death, and subsequent resurrection. Seeing her alive, he cried out "Lord, I believe!" . Then in recognition of his own fragility, he called out, "Lord help thou my unbelief". In reality, that is ALL it takes.

I can tell you that if before you go to bed this evening, you sincerely pray, "Lord, help my unbelief" you will get an answer from God, and it will somehow be the answer to your particular "X-factor".

But you HAVE TO ASK SINCERELY . Try it. You have hell to lose, and heaven to gain.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 84 by By Grace]

You are ignoring the facts of free will and the universal revelation of the handiwork of God as a testimony of His being and greatness.

Nope. That is nothing more than opinion. You attribute things to your God that have never actually been demonstrated.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 84 by By Grace]

Psalm 8:1 O Lord our Lord, how excellent is thy name in all the earth! who hast set thy glory above the heavens. 2 Out of the mouth of babes and sucklings hast thou ordained strength because of thine enemies, that thou mightest still the enemy and the avenger. 3 When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained; 4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?

To rule out that (or to ignore it) is to make God the Great Puppeteer

Nope. That just makes the human author a poet trying to promote his opinions.

Just as 1/3 of the angels in heaven to rebel, and the other 2/3 chose to remain loyal to God, not following the Archangel Lucifer, so also does God permit the greater creation, humanity (but for a time the lesser creation) the free choice of rebellion or obeying.

Heaven can't have been the majestic place painted by Christians if even one third of the angels were prepared to give it up. Unlike humans, they had the advantage of actually seeing the place first. Humans have to take it all on hearsay from self-appointed intermediaries here on earth. In fact, it's very telling that everything we know about God comes from human intermediaries. You could be forgiven for thinking that there was no God actually there.

At one time, EVERY knee will bow in heaven and on earth to give God His full due as sovereign Lord, the choice for humanity will be if their due obeisance is willful and wonderful, or forced and frightening.

Rhetoric. Stories written by anonymous people from antiquity with an agenda to push their newly invented religion should be treated with utmost skepticism. The tactic used by the authors was to instill fear of the consequences of not joining the cult and to keep pushing that message to keep converts from escaping. Lobster pot theology.

[By Grace]

[Replying to post 85 by brunumb]

In this post above, and the one following the only thing consistent is vehement disliking of the Bible.

It is almost as if you are stating "If it is in the Bible, I will not deal with it.".

For example when you posted about creation NOT being an example of the handiwork of God, and present something that proves my point from Psalms 8, your knee-jerk reaction is to go off on an irrelevant rant about the "human author trying to promote his opinions".

In other words, no matter what I say, you automatically dismiss that because it COMES FROM THE BIBLE. Therefore, there can be no basis for rational discussion if one dismisses the in-your-face evidence out of hand.

You are of course entitled to your mere opinions, as am I. But in having those opinions, you forfeit the high ground of rational discussions about what the Bible actually says because you are so prejudiced against it.

I do not argue with "unusual thinking", nor do I argue with delusions; it is a carry-over from being a case manager. That is why I shall no longer respond.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 87 by By Grace]

For example when you posted about creation NOT being an example of the handiwork of God, and present something that proves my point from Psalms 8, your knee-jerk reaction is to go off on an irrelevant rant about the "human author trying to promote his opinions".

It is not irrelevant. Quoting a passage from the Bible proves nothing. You did not refute my claim that it was nothing more than the author promoting his opinion.

In other words, no matter what I say, you automatically dismiss that because it COMES FROM THE BIBLE. Therefore, there can be no basis for rational discussion if one dismisses the in-your-face evidence out of hand.

If it consists of words taken from the Bible it cannot be used as evidence of the truth of words contained within the Bible. Your complaint it not logical.

You are of course entitled to your mere opinions, as am I. But in having those opinions, you forfeit the high ground of rational discussions about what the Bible actually says because you are so prejudiced against it.

Why do I forfeit having a rational discussion because of my opinions but you do not because of your opinions. The content of the Bible and its veracity is open for discussion. You only want to discuss it if it is first accepted as undeniable truth. This has not been established. I argue that God appears to be hiding because he does not exist. The Bible does not prove he exists. Quoting the Bible as an argument to the contrary is fallacious.

I do not argue with "unusual thinking", nor do I argue with delusions; it is a carry-over from being a case manager. That is why I shall no longer respond.

My thinking is not unusual. You appear to be only willing to discuss the issue with people who only accept what you say and offer no criticism. I can understand why you are unwilling to respond. In my experience, Christians invariably shut down discussions when they are unable to make their case.

P.S. My posts are not vitriolic. Such accusations are again a tactic I have observed when Christians are failing to make their case. Vehement means showing strong feeling; forceful, passionate, or intense. I'll accept that.

[alexxcJRO]

I have no illusions about the sincerity of your belief, but sincerity of one's beliefs can never be the proof of existence or non existence of God.

It does(but not on the general concept of God, but on a specfic one). You will see bellow.

Basically, I do, but the question you ask has the adjective "genuine" modifying disbelief. so unless and until you define the meaning of "genuine" as you use it in the sentence, I will have to take a pass on the question.

You seem to like the word sincere but not genuine.

Q: What's up with that?!

Q: You really do not know the word sincere is a synonimus with genuine?! Common.

https://www.google.ro/search?client=ope ... PQ_tX6ka6w

https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/genuine

genuine

ˈdʒɛnjʊɪn/Submit
adjective
truly what something is said to be; authentic.
"genuine 24-carat gold"
synonyms: authentic, real, actual, original, pukka, bona fide, true, veritable, unfeigned, unadulterated, unalloyed; More
(of a person, emotion, or action) sincere.
"a genuine attempt to put things right"
synonyms: sincere, honest, truthful, unhypocritical, meaning what one says, straightforward, direct, frank, candid, open; More

More than likely, there is absolutely ZERO things that God could do to cause you to believe in Him; I understand that, so I will not ask you to provide me with an answer.

God is omnipotent. Therefere we should not have any problem whatsoever.

I do not subscribe to what Hume says, so I will tell that to God, the next time I talk to Him.

But this is what the Bible says about that:

Ephesians 1: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins....

That makes more sense to me than either Hume, or Locke

Common dear sir or ma'am.

Q: Can you really choose, will yourself after 5 minute reading this post to sincerely believe that aliens(the Greys, reptilians), Yeti, Lock Nest Monster, Anunnaki and Nibiru or any other fantastic thing exist without being convinced and persuaded by evidence?

Q: Is God(Yahweh) an omnipotent, omniscient, perfectly good being? (Yes/No question)

Yes, He is

Q: Does God(Yahweh) want to have a personal relationship with me? (Yes/No question)

Yes, He does

Q: Does God(Yahweh) want for me to believe in him?(Yes/No question)

Yes, he does.

ALL of those (as far as the questions go) are answered in the affirmative in Scripture.

Notation:

D= my sincere belief that God(Yahweh) does not exist.

Logical deduction by reductio ad absurdum: 

P1. God(Yahweh) is an omnipotent, omniscient, perfectly good being who wants me to believe in him and have a personal relationship with me. (I assumed God(Yahweh) exists). 
P2. An omniscient being knows of a way to stop D.
P3. An omnipotent being who knows of a way to stop D has the power to do so. 
P4. A being who knows of a way to stop D, has the power to do so , and who wants to do so, would do it. 
P5. If there exists an omnipotent, omniscient, and who perfectly good being who wants me to believe in him and have a personal relationship with me, then D does not exist. 
P6. Because God(Yahweh) exists then D does not exist. 
P7. D exists.(Logical contradiction) 

C: Therefore God(Yahweh) an omnipotent, omniscient, perfectly good being who wants me to believe in him and have a personal relationship with me does not exist.

Either he is willing but not able therefore not omnipotent but weak. 
Or he is able but no willing therefore he is indifferent. 
Or he is neither able, neither willing; then why call him God? 
If he is both able and willing whence cometh D?

The only premises you could hypothetically reject are P1 and P7 but that would mean you would contradict yourself because you have already accepted them.
You agreed my sincere belief in God(Yahweh) aka D exists: " I have no illusions about the sincerity of your belief".
You agreed God(Yahweh) is an omnipotent, omniscient, perfectly good being.
You agreed God(Yahweh) wants to have a personal relationship with me and wants for me to believe in him.

[By Grace]

[Replying to post 89 by alexxcJRO]

You seem to like the word sincere but not genuine.

Q: What's up with that?! Shocked

Q: You really do not know the word sincere is a synonimus with genuine?! Common.

https://www.google.ro/search?client=ope ... jgkgXloKzw...

https://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/genuine

genuine

ˈdʒɛnjʊɪn/Submit
adjective
truly what something is said to be; authentic.
"genuine 24-carat gold"
synonyms: authentic, real, actual, original, pukka, bona fide, true, veritable, unfeigned, unadulterated, unalloyed; More
(of a person, emotion, or action) sincere.
"a genuine attempt to put things right"
synonyms: sincere, honest, truthful, unhypocritical, meaning what one says, straightforward, direct, frank, candid, open; More

A thesaurus is NOT the same thing as a dictionary.

What I had in mind was Saul, who persecuted Christians prior to being Paul the Apostle. He was sincere in his efforts to kill Christians, and may have been complicit in the martyrdom of Stephen.

In this case, "sincere" means earnest, unwavering and forceful, bit it does NOT mean his beliefs were "genuine" meaning true by any stretch of imagination. he even says so :

Philippians 3: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. 7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,

Common dear sir or ma'am.

Q: Can you really choose, will yourself after 5 minute reading this post to sincerely believe that aliens (the Greys, reptilians), Yeti, Lock Nest Monster, Anunnaki and Nibiru or any other fantastic thing exist without being convinced and persuaded by evidence? Confused

I have no idea about what you post in the above quote nor how they relate to the subjects in my post. Please elaborate as to the relevance.