The Law: Was it so Hard

[liamconnor]

Protestant branches of Christianity present ancient Judaism as an impossible religion in which members are always in despair because they can never obey the law. Out of this assessment arises the value of Christianity: The Jewish Law is impossible to fulfill; but good news, one does not have to fulfill it!

Question: Is the Jewish Law really that hard? I have read the O.T. several times. I have read much of Rabbinic Law. None of it seems terribly hard.

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 54 by bluethread]


"Those translators do not always agree and often have to choose between readability and accuracy. They are also often influenced by doctrinal and cultural biases. "

I certainly agree and it is sad that things have gone this way.
I stay with kjv as being earlier translation before every Tom Dick and Harry thought they were wise enough for the job.

Well, one of my first professors used to say that the best translation is your own translation. Not that a college freshman is better at translating the scriptures than the translators of the published versions. The point is that, if one wishes to engage in discussion of the Scriptures one should familiarize oneself with the history, language and culture.

"That is interesting, because the author of the letter to the diaspora(Hebrews) directly quotes Yermiyahu(Jeremiah) in Hebrews 8:8, where it says, “The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah." Yet, you say the people of Israel and Yehudah(Judah) have nothing to teach us? If it is not important what Jews have to say, you may as well through away the entire bible, since nearly all of it was written by Jews. I'm not sure whether you are aware of this, but Yeshua HaMeshiach(Jesus the Christ) is Jewish, as were all of His talmudim(disciples)."

Jesus never acknowledged that he was Jewish, never acknowledged his mother as mother. As to who wrote the Bible there isn't solid evidence for that.

Really, what about when He said, (Jn. 4:22) "Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews." and (Mt. 15:24) "But he answered and said,I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. " Also, why would they bring Him before the Sanhedrian, if He were not Jewish?

I went bit overboard, I am sure we can learn many things from Jews but here I meant mainly spiritual/Biblical things. For instance they would never ever accept the rest of Hebrews chapter 8.

I don't know what you mean. "They" were the ones to whom that letter was written. Admittedly, there were Jews who did not accept it. However, prior to the Jerusalem council, they were exclusively Jews, at least in Jerusalem. If not, what is the point of Acts 15?

For the record, Jeremiah is not mentioned by name.
Your translation says people, kjv says house.

This is silly. It is nearly exactly the same passage. The people to whom the letter was written would surely have recognized it. Regarding beth Israel and beth Yehudah, that idiomatically means the family, as when Yohashuah(Joshua) says, (Josh 24:5) "as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." So, what is your point?

[bluethread]

]

Well, in that case it is just a course of habit. There is no J in Hebrew, or Greek for that matter.

So what?! There are no roman letters in Hebrew or Greek either. The point is there is a J in English (the language you are writing in) so why not use it?

In the Germanic languages J is pronounced as the English pronounce Y. So, why not cut out the middle man.

And why not leave him in? What is GAINED by writing 'Y'? My point isn't that its bad (or good) its just what difference does make to write Yeshua instead of Jesus?

Because, unlike German and Spanish, J does not make the Yah sound. For someone who is so big on the use of Yud-Hay-Vav-Hay, it is interesting that you have no problem with it being mispronounced.

ps: "raise awareness" about what exactly? Middle English pronunciation?

No Hebrew pronounciation, which is tied to the meaning of the words. J-E-S-U-S is just a moniker. It does not mean anything. What sense does it make for the angel to say, "thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." What does J-E-S-U-S have to do with saving His people? Yah-Shua, literally means Yah's salvation.

[Elijah John]

]

Well, in that case it is just a course of habit. There is no J in Hebrew, or Greek for that matter.

So what?! There are no roman letters in Hebrew or Greek either. The point is there is a J in English (the language you are writing in) so why not use it?

In the Germanic languages J is pronounced as the English pronounce Y. So, why not cut out the middle man.

And why not leave him in? What is GAINED by writing 'Y'? My point isn't that its bad (or good) its just what difference does make to write Yeshua instead of Jesus?

Because, unlike German and Spanish, J does not make the Yah sound. For someone who is so big on the use of Yud-Hay-Vav-Hay, it is interesting that you have no problem with it being mispronounced.

ps: "raise awareness" about what exactly? Middle English pronunciation?

No Hebrew pronounciation, which is tied to the meaning of the words. J-E-S-U-S is just a moniker. It does not mean anything. What sense does it make for the angel to say, "thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins." What does J-E-S-U-S have to do with saving His people? Yah-Shua, literally means Yah's salvation.

Yes, "Jehovah" is a reasonable, transliterated pronounciation based on the Tetragrammaton. If one wants to be closer to the original Hebrew, then the pronouncingation should include a "Y" sound, and not the "J".

Since no one knows for sure, (thanks to, or blame Rabbinic tradition) and though very persuasive reconstructions exist, seems the safest rendering of the Divine name is simply "Yah". As in Yahovah, or Yahweh.

You make a good point about "YahShua" BT, but just curious. While I appreciate your usage of Hebraic terms, and understand why you do so, I do not understand your reluctance to pronounce the Divine name, in writing here.

Why would someone who is not a Jew be constrained by Rabbinc prohibition? Or is it for another reason?

Why not at least use the Tetragrammaton, YHVH, or YHWH in your writings? Even Baal worshipers call their God "Lord" or "my Lord". So calling YHVH "Adonai" is not as specific as it could be.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 61 by bluethread]

So if you have a problem mispronouncing things how do you get the pronounciation "Adonay" from YHWH?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 97#p915097


RELATED POSTS

Is "adonai" a translation of the Tetragrammaton?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p329381

To learn more please go to other posts related to ....

GOD, THE DIVINE NAME and ...THE DIVINE PERSONALITY

[JehovahsWitness]

For someone who is so big on the use of Yud-Hay-Vav-Hay, it is interesting that you have no problem with it being mispronounced.

Yes, I am big on the use of the Divine Name, I'm not ashamed of that. God's personal name is more than a label, it represents the Person himself? I'm "big on" The Divine name because I'm "big on" God. All of Jehovah's Witesses are "big on" the use of YHWH, after all Jesus said that a primary concern of all Christians should be that that name be "hallowed" or held high, he did not say:

"You should pray then this way:

Our Father who art in heaven, may your name be eliminated/ignored and/or be replaced.

IS IT BETTER TO REPLACE BIBLE NAMES IF WE CANNOT KNOW FOR SURE HOW THEY WERE ORIGINALLY PRONOUNCED?

The original language of the Hebrew scriptures is long dead. Anyone that believes that saying "Yehoshuah" or any other modern pronunciation of ancient Hebrew is pronouncing the words as Moses did in the Torah is delusional. Modern Hebrew is in fact a relatively new language and doesn't claim to fully reflect is original root pronunciation, much less if it is further filtered through the variety of English accents. The question is then, how important is pronunciation?

Did Jesus insist on one particular PRONUNCIATION?

• Even in Jesus' day the Jews had moved from speaking ancient Hebrew to their modern vernacular Aramaic and Greek. They translated the Hebrew scriptures into Greek and it is probably from that translation (the Septuagint) that Jesus and the first century bible writers quoted. The point is that even in speaking Hebrew, Jesus would not have been pronouncing names (including the Divine Name - YHWH) as it was originally pronounced. For those of us that believe that Jesus existed before Abraham, he undoubtedly knew how God originally pronounced the name, and was capable of speaking in ancient Hebrew, but there is no record of him doing anything but use the language and pronunciation common to the people of his day. Why would this be the case? Because the MEANING of a word is not changed by translation, alternative pronunciation or transliteration (compare Acts 2:7-11)

.

TRANSLITERATION DOES NOT CHANGE MEANING

• There are those that insist that "Jesus" has no meaning. This is ludicrous! Jesus (an English transliteration from the Latin) has the same meaning as "Yeheshua" (an English transliteration from the Hebrew). Transliterations have no effect on the root meaning of a word, because by definition, a transliteration is just a way of transcribing sounds from one language to another. It makes no difference how many stages that transliteration goes through, the word itself retains its original meaning
  

  ... so Petros means stone, Peter means stone, Pierre means stone, Pedro means stone... Yehoshua mean YHWH is salvation, Yeshua means YHWH is salvation, Yesus means YHWH is salvation, Joshua means YHWH is salvation and Jesus means YHWH is salvation (Adonai however does NOT mean YHWH is salvation)

CONCLUSION: Since Jesus did not support the notion of insisting on a particular pronunciation of names or words, there is no merit for a Christian in insisting that a name be pronounced exactly as the original. Doubt over exact pronunciation however should not be used as an excuse to eliminated or replace words or names with alternatives with different meanings. For this reason regardless of how the Divine Name (YHWH) is pronounced, True Christians will not replace or eliminate it either from their personal lexicon in prayer and worship, or from its rightful place in scripture.



Geoffrey W. Jackson: The Divine Name of Our Heavenly Father
https://tv.jw.org/#en/mediaitems/Studio ... 06_1_VIDEO



PRONUNCIATION

Has the original pronunciation of the Divine Name been lost?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 79#p915179

Should the Divine Name be treated differently from other biblical names?
viewtopic.php?p=1091152#p1091152

Should the Masoretic vowel choice be rejected?
viewtopic.php?p=1091154#p1091154

Does the letter /j/ belong in the Divine name?
viewtopic.php?p=1029301#p1029301

Do theophoric names present clues as to how the Divine Name was originally pronounced?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 66#p872166

Is there an academic consensus on the correct pronunciation of the Divine Name (YHWH)? (3-syllable)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 88#p822688

To learn more please go to other posts related to ....

GOD, THE DIVINE NAME and ...THE DIVINE PERSONALITY

[bluethread]

Why would someone who is not a Jew be constrained by Rabbinc prohibition? Or is it for another reason?

Why not at least use the Tetragrammaton, YHVH, or YHWH in your writings? Even Baal worshipers call their God "Lord" or "my Lord". So calling YHVH "Adonai" is not as specific as it could be.

Respect for the caretakers of the Scriptures, combined with the fact that the Scriptures first present it as a reluctant response to Moshe's request. Also, I am concerned with the idea that any collection of letters can truly convey the character. It is really interesting how some people will label being careful with word usage as either sophistry or legalism. Christians often jump on "the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life", but then insist that people use the words and letters that they prefer, in the way they prefer. Personally, I don't really care what words one uses, but I do expect them to be able to explain what they mean, when asked. That is what I think the true meaning of that passage is.

[bluethread]

For someone who is so big on the use of Yud-Hay-Vav-Hay, it is interesting that you have no problem with it being mispronounced.

Yes, I am big on the use of the Divine Name, I'm not ashamed of that. God's personal name is more than a label, it represents the Person himself? I'm "big on" The Divine name because I'm "big on" God. All of Jehovah's Witesses are "big on" the use of YHWH, after all Jesus said that a primary concern of all Christians should be that that name be "hallowed" or held high, he did not say:

"You should pray then this way:

Our Father who art in heaven, may your name be eliminated/ignored and/or be replaced.

So, why did you use "the Devine name" twice and YHWH only once in that last paragraph. The prayer says, "hollowed", i.e. set apart for a purpose, "is your name". Also, notice that nowhere does YHWH, or any variation thereof is in that prayer. I have never said that YHWH should be ignored. However, what is the difference between "the Devine name" which you use as stand ins for YHWH and HasShem(The Name)? The cut and paste of one of you denominations pamphlets, that you attach to that post, goes to great lengths to point out that it is the meaning that is important and the words used do not matter as long as the meaning is understood. So, if I make it clear when asked that Adonai is a title for YHWH or the deity of Avraham, Yitzchak and Yacov, what's the problem? If "God" and "the Devine name" are acceptable, I don't see why Adonai isn't.

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 61 by bluethread]

So if you have a problem mispronouncing things how do you get the pronounciation "Adonay" from YHWH?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 097#915097


RELATED POSTS

Is "adonai" a translation of the Tetragrammaton?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 381#329381

I have never said that Adonai was a translation or even a transliteration of YHWH. It is a title like "Lord". I have not noticed a lot of objections to people using that on this web site. If the English term "Lord" is acceptable, why isn't the Hebrew term Adonai, which means "Lord", acceptable? Whenever it is pertinant to the conversation, I note what the passage says in Hebrew. If others use "lord" or "god", I generally do not even mention it. If I were insisting that Adonai was a name and/or required everyone to use it, you might have a point. However, niether of those are or ever have been the case.

[Elijah John]

Why would someone who is not a Jew be constrained by Rabbinc prohibition? Or is it for another reason?

Why not at least use the Tetragrammaton, YHVH, or YHWH in your writings? Even Baal worshipers call their God "Lord" or "my Lord". So calling YHVH "Adonai" is not as specific as it could be.

Respect for the caretakers of the Scriptures,

And who are the caretakers of the Scriptures. Sounds as though you are giving authority to the Rabbis. Do you consider yourself a Noahide, under their authority?

Also, are you familiar with Karaite Jews? They embrace the Tanakh but reject the Oral Law, the teachings of the Rabbis. Including their prohibition on pronoucing the Divine Name. The Karaites most often render the Divine Name as "Yehovah" but also acknowledge the validity of such renderings as "Yahweh".

Also, do you think the Rabbinic prohibition is a binding, and well reasoned one?

combined with the fact that the Scriptures first present it as a reluctant response to Moshe's request.

Seems so, at first anyway. Perhaps the Buring Bush theophany was an opportunity to explain the meaning of the Name, (I AM that I AM) before actually giving Moses the Name itself and it's pronounciation. Subsequently, YHVH seems quite comfortable with the usage of His Name, he owns it, so to speak. And this culminates in the First Commandment, where YHVH introduces Himself to the Hebrew people...by name.

I am YHVH thy God, ....thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Also, I am concerned with the idea that any collection of letters can truly convey the character.

The Tetragrammaton is not just a "collection of letters", it is a remnant. Pretty much all we have left of the Divine Name, thanks to the Rabbinic prohibition on pronoucing it. There are some good recovery attempts, and reconstructions, but we can never really be absolutely sure how it was orignally pronounced.

And actually, was the Divine name ever intended to convey the entirety of God's character? I doubt it, nothing can. No reason to dismiss it out of hand. But if one reads the Psalms in a translation which honors the Name of God, one can see what a gift it is, what a vital link to the Divine, and focal point of prayer. That is how King David seems to have used it.

O give thanks unto YHVH, call on his name:

(Psalm 105.1)

Then we have this, YHVH though the prophet Isaiah:

I am YHVH, that is my name....

(Isaiah 42.8)

It is really interesting how some people will label being careful with word usage as either sophistry or legalism. Christians often jump on "the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life", but then insist that people use the words and letters that they prefer, in the way they prefer. Personally, I don't really care what words one uses, but I do expect them to be able to explain what they mean, when asked. That is what I think the true meaning of that passage is.

I think you are addressing someone else here, I have no problem with folks using and or mixing Hebraic terms with English, Greek or Aramaic.

How many Christians, for example, exclaim "Hallelujah" into their English prayers and/or liturgy.

I was just curious with my question, and with the follow up attempting to make a general case for reverent usage of the Divine Name.

[Monta]

[[url=http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 312#915312]

"Out Father who art in the heavens hallowed be thy Name."

I think Jesus was saying something most profound.
There are thousands of names for God today and throughout history.
It is the affection and the feeling we have for the One we look up to.
Ancient people would have addressed God by innumerable names.
They've never read a book had nobody to teach them but they perceived that there is Sombody who has all power.

In the Lord's prayer 'our Father' is the most profound name for God that Jesus so lovingly introduced to us.

Chapter 1 - Taoism.net
www.taoism.net/ttc/chapters/chap01.htm

Chapter 1. The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao The name that can be named is not the eternal name. The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth The named is the mother of myriad things.