JW organization.

[Elijah John]

Jehovah's Witnesses are not allowed to:

-vote
-celebrate birthdays
-celebrate Christmas or Easter
-donate or receive blood transfusions.

And if any JW openly persists in doing these things[edit to add publicly], they will be shunned or disfellowshipped, [edit to add or otherwise admonished or disciplined.]

For debate,

1) what do any of these check-list prohibitions have to do with Christianity?

2) And are any of these prohibitions compatible with the idea of Christian freedom?

3) Are these prohibitions arbitrary or legalistic?

4) And could Jehvoah's Witness as an organization flourish without these particular prohibitions and still honor God?

Please address any or all of the above.

[ttruscott]

"No amount of belief makes something a fact." James Randi

No amount of disbelief destroys the truth. Me

[ttruscott]

Fideism holds that faith is necessary, and that beliefs may be held without any evidence or reason and even in conflict with evidence and reason.

Prove this blanket statement or withdraw...

[polonius]

Fideism holds that faith is necessary, and that beliefs may be held without any evidence or reason and even in conflict with evidence and reason.

Prove this blanket statement or withdraw...

RESPONSE: You'll have to send your demand to Wikipedia. It's their statement. Do you think your demand will be taken seriously ?

[shnarkle]

So I ask you again, what do any of those prohibitions have to do with Christianity?

For Jehovah's Witnesses Christianity is that based on the teachings of Christ one of which is that the entire word of God (The bible as it exists today) is inspired direction from Jehovah (see John 17:17). By virtue of this, we believe no true Christian rejects any part of the bible. All of Jehovah's Witnesses beliefs are based on laws and principles found in the bible (66 books of the bible Canon). This is a basic and fundamental requirement of Christianity. The bible contains numerous prohibitions and mandates for those that wish to please God as well as a pattern for his standard for organizational procedure which must be respected if people wish to legitimately represent Him.

Christian freedom means Christians are free to conform to the Christian law and principles, ie those found in the entire Greek Scripture (New Testament) or not. If not they are free to face the inevitable consequences.

This is intriguing to me in that those from the Jehovah's Witness church near me pointed to some verses in Romans to justify NOT keeping the Sabbath, but i pointed out that these verses say nothing about the Sabbath, and given that's the case, why would they have any problem with anyone celebrating a birthday, wedding anniversary etc.? They had nothing to say on the subject.

One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 461 by shnarkle]

WEDDING ANNIVERSARIES

There's nothing wrong with anniversaries, including wedding anniversaries. They are not however religious requirements.


BIRTHDAY CELEBRATIONS

Birthday traditions however are closely linked with false religous practises and thus we JWs believe they violate the bible principle of not adopting false religious practices. It's for this reason we find them objectionable.

OWH presented an excellent exposé on this topic back in post #61
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 734#840734

Further reading: Why don't Jehovah's Witnesses celebrate birthdays?
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/faq/birthdays/

Do JWs tell people not to celebrate birthdays?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 565#914565

WEEKLY SABBATHS

If a person wants to observe a weekly Sabbath that is indeed their personal decision but we believe that biblically doing so holds no religious significance. In other words, Christians are under no obligation to either worship on a particular day of the week nor are they in our opinion, obliged to respect the restrictions imposed by the Mosaic law regarding work on a particular day since that law has been abolished.

why would they have any problem with anyone celebrating a birthday, wedding anniversary etc.?

We don't "any problem" with what you or anyone does, that's not our business. We just reserve the right to make our own personal choices regarding the above as well as the right to explain why we do what we do and what we believe the bible has to say on these and other subjects.



JW

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 461 by shnarkle]

WEDDING ANNIVERSARIES

There's nothing wrong with anniversaries, including wedding anniversaries. They are not however religious requirements.

Good to know.

BIRTHDAY CELEBRATIONS

Birthday traditions however are closely linked with false religous practices

So is shaving the corners of one's beard and worshipping on the venerable day of the sun, Sunday. This doesn't seem to stop them from doing both

and thus we JWs believe they violate the bible principle of not adopting false religious practices. It's for this reason we find them objectionable.

Seems a bit arbitrary. All of the pagan cultures around Israel kept a Sunday observance, yet most of mainstream Christianity keeps that day as well.

OWH presented an excellent exposé on this topic back in post #61
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 734#840734

WEEKLY SABBATHS

If a person wants to observe a weekly Sabbath that is indeed their personal decision but we believe that biblically doing so holds no religious significance.

The first thing the JW's who came to my door told me was not to just take their word for it. They said I should search the scriptures to find and verify what they said. No one should do what they say just because they say so. There is nothing in the bible to suggest that the Sabbath was a matter of personal opinion. Quite to the contrary. There are numerous examples of the early church keeping and Sabbath observance. Paul even points out that the church should observe the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

In other words, Christians are under no obligation to either worship on a particular day of the week nor are they in our opinion, obliged to respect the restrictions imposed by the Mosaic law regarding work on a particular day since that law has been abolished.

Says you, and says your organization. The bible says nothing of the sort. The law is no more abolished than the faith of Christ is abolished. It is simply that Christians don't beleive what the texts plainly state.

why would they have any problem with anyone celebrating a birthday, wedding anniversary etc.?

We don't "any problem" with what you or anyone does, that's not our business. We just reserve the right to make our own personal choices regarding the above as well as the right to explain why we do what we do and what we believe the bible has to say on these and other subjects.

It's really about the organization's personal interpretation than personal choice, and while no one is denying the right to explain your beliefs, it is quite obvious no one in the organization has the power to explain them beyond their own assertions.

I pointed out that if the law is done away with then there is no such thing as adultery anymore. The JW's documents I was supplied with point out that it was the destruction of the Temple which facilitated the abolishment of the law; contrary to scripture which plainly points out that it is the "curse" of the law that is done away with, not the obligation.

To do away with the law is to do away with sin, and if there is no sin, then there is no need for a savior.

There is not one single verse in the new testament that claims to do away with the Mosaic law. They are all dealing with the law that was "added because of transgressions". When that was done away with what was added was done away, not what it was added to. To conflate the law with what is added to the law to deal with transgressinos is a gross misreading of the texts, and makes no sense whatsoever. One can't transgress a law that doesn't exist.

There's no misunderstanding why you beleive what you do. There is simply no cohereant biblical reason for these beliefs.

[shnarkle]

-Voting: Christians do not vote because Jesus Christ is our King/president/governor/chancellor/whatever and we place our hope only in his rule.

And yet almost none of his teachings are followed by any church denomination. Go figure.

Christians also know that this world is run by Satan (IJohn 5:19), so why would we join in with its politics? (See also James 4:4; John 17:14; Eccles.8:9; Psalm 146:3.)

Good question. An even better one would be to ask why would any Christian rely on Mammon when Christ explicitly points out that one can't rely on Mammon and God. One can only pick one, and all of Christianity has chosen Mammon. Why?

-Celebrating birthdays: The early Christians and the Jews of early times did not celebrate birthdays. "The notion of a birthday festival was far from the ideas of the Christians of this period in general." (The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the Three First Centuries, New York, 1838, Augustus Neander (translated by Henry John Rose, pg 190.) "The later Hebrews looked on the celebration of birthdays as a part of idolatrous worship, a view which would be abundantly confirmed by what they saw of the common observances associated with these days." (
Wouldn't true Christians feel the need to extricate themselves from such observances? If Christ is the truth (John 14:6), would we mix in UNtruths with our worship of God? (2Corinthians 6:14-17)

Untruths are mixed in. Cutting or trimming one's beard is closely linked to pagan rituals, profaning the Sabbath is nowhere allowed or condoned. It's the fourth commandment. The odd thing is that no Christian denomination has corrected this error by referring to the commandments as "the nine commandments". God's law is explicitly articulated as "one law" for the Jew "and the foreigner alike".

The bottom line is this: Wholesome gatherings of family and friends AT OTHER TIMES to eat and drink and rejoice are not objectionable.

The bottom line is that gathering at other times doesn't negate the fourth commandment. It's a blatant non sequitur and there is no scriptural support for this idea whatsoever. The Catholic church as well as a number of other Protestant denominations point out that the origin of this doctrine is found in the authority of the Catholic church. They boast of this fact as well as the blatant disregard for the Protestant doctrine of sole scriptura.

-Celebrating Christmas or Easter: Christians do not celebrate Christmas because, as M'Clintock and Strong's Cyclopoedia says: "The observance of Christmas is not of divine appointment,

There is no divine appointment to trample on God's Sabbaths. It is one of the most dramatic ironies that those who claim to be Jehovah's Witnesses have no regard whatsoever for Jehovah's Feast days.

[/u], when the days begin to lengthen, to celebrate the 'rebirth of the sun.' [The Roman Saturnalia; dies natalis Solis Invicti]...Christmas originated at a time when the cult of the sun was particularly strong at Rome."

And light was created on the first day of the week which is the day pagans keep in worshipping the sun

There are other reasons as well that a Christian who appreciated truth and Godly principles would not participate in a celebration with pagan traditions, mixing the truth of Christ with falsehoods.

And yet Christ himself points out the Godly principle that "the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" Notice he doesn't say that the Sabbath was made for Jews, nor does he say that the Sabbath was against mankind, but "for" mankind; for our benefit. This is explicitly what the Mosaic law was designed for as well. Those who keep God's law are blessed while those who don't can expect curses.

Christians do not give blood or take blood into their bodies because of a Scriptural command (Genesis 9:4; Acts 15:20,29)---blood being sacred to God

And yet both of these passages are refernces to the dietary laws which are supposedely done away with. Cherry picking verses isn't the best way to form a doctrine.

Let's look at what the text actually says.

But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

Things strangled and from blood are both references to the dietary laws which you believe are done away with. The reason that they are being articulated is because just like anyone who was attempting to join themselves to Israel, they were no longer allowed to live as pagans. In this case a Jew could offer a gentile an animal that had not been slaughtered according to the laws of kashrut; the dietary laws allowed a Jew to notify a gentile if there was a pig on their property and they could give it to them or even make a profit and sell it to them. That all changed when a gentile decided to become a member of the cult of Israel. The elders of the church aren't changing anything with regards to Jewish law. They are simply pointing out some of the more important issues that need to be addressed. They don't go into the whole of the Mosaid law as is evidenced by the reasons given in the very next verse.

21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

So not only is the Mosaic law not being done away with, it is noted as being learned while these gentile converts are observing Jehovah's weekly Sabbath; the day Jehovah rested and the day Moses was commanded to never forget.

Why would conscientious Christians submit to taking someone else's blood into their bodies when (1) the Bible forbids it, and (2) there are many substitutes that are risk-free?

Good question. Moreover why would conscientious Christians eat what God refers to as "an abomination" when he strictly forbids it? Why eat something that is not only dangerous, and unhealthy, but when there are so many substitutes that are better for a consciencious Christian to eat?

[JehovahsWitness]

Birthday traditions however are closely linked with false religous practices

So is shaving the corners of one's beard and worshipping on the venerable day of the sun, Sunday. This doesn't seem to stop them from doing both

SHAVING THE SIDES OF THE BEARD

Who are you referring to? Jehovah's Witness men do not shave (just) the corners of their beards (something apparently associated with ancient pagan religions). If they shave, they shave the entire beard (they may shave the sides and the cheeks leaving a moustache on the upper lip...) but shaving the corners of one's beard is not something Jehovah's Witnesses do. Are you perhaps referring to another group?





RELATED POSTS

Does the Jehovah's Witness religion prohibit its members from wearing beards?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 63#p914563

Did the Apostle Paul suggest men's hair doesn't grow long?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 44#p866744

To learn more please go to other posts related to ...

BIBLICAL LAW, THE MOSAIC LAW COVENANT and ...THE ABRAHAMIC CONVENANT

[JehovahsWitness]

Christians are under no obligation to either worship on a particular day of the week nor are they in our opinion, obliged to respect the restrictions imposed by the Mosaic law regarding work on a particular day since that law has been abolished.

The bible says nothing of the sort. The law is no more abolished than the faith of Christ is abolished. It is simply that Christians don't beleive what the texts plainly state.

ROMANS 7:6
But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that wherein we were holden; so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter. - ERV

ROMANS 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth - KJV

scripture ... plainly points out that it is the "curse" of the law that is done away with, not the obligation.

GALATIANS 5:18
But when you are directed by the Spirit, you are not under obligation to the law of Moses. - NLT





JEHOVAH'S WITNESS


FURTHER READING The Early Christians and the Mosaic Law (scritpures included)
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2003205


RELATED POSTS

Did Jesus not say he had not come to abolish the law [Mat 5:17] ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 78#p965278

Does Mat 5:18 not indicate that none of the Mosaic law would ever pass away? [this post]
viewtopic.php?p=1042911#p1042911

To learn more please go to other posts related to ...

BIBLICAL LAW, THE MOSAIC LAW COVENANT and ...THE ABRAHAMIC CONVENANT

[JehovahsWitness]

ARE CHRISTIANS REQUIRED TO OBSERVE A WEEKLY SABBATH?

No. The Sabbath law applied only to the people subject to the rest of the Law given through Moses to the nation of Israel. (Deuteronomy 5:2, 3; Ezekiel 20:10-12) God never prescribed such a law to another nation. Individuals living within Israel's borders were of course required to respect the law of the land, but no other nation as a whole were given this requirement.

In addition the bible explains that even the Jews were “released from the Lawof Moses, including the Ten Commandments, by the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. (compare Romans 7:6, 7; 10:4; Galatians 3:24, 25; Ephesians 2:15) Rather than adhere to the Law of Moses, Christians follow the superior law of love.—Romans 13:9, 10; Hebrews 8:13.


JW





RELATED POSTS

Does the bible say the Mosaic law has been "abolished"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 76#p918176


FURTHER READING Must Christians keep a Sabbath? (scriptures included)
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... n-sabbath/