The Deception Theory of Religion

Argue for and against Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

User avatar
Jagella
Banned
Banned
Posts: 3667
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:01 am
Been thanked: 2 times
Contact:

The Deception Theory of Religion

Post #1

Post by Jagella »

A good place to start talking about religious deception is to see what that great philosopher George Carlin has to say about it. I can paraphrase his "religion is ________" argument as:
In the baloney department, nobody can hold a candle to a clergyman. When it comes to baloney--big-time, major league, buh-lone-nee, you have to stand in awe, in AWE, of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims...

religion!

No contest--no contest. Religion easily has the greatest baloney story ever told. Think about it: religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man in the sky who watches everything you do, and the invisible man has a list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these things he has a special place full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish where he will send you to suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever...

but he loves you!

He loves you and he needs money. He's all-powerful and all-knowing but somehow just can't handle money. Religion takes in billions of tax-free dollars, and they always need more.

Now--you talk about a good baloney story--Holy Moses!
Carlin has more to say about his theory of religion, but for now allow me to interject by examining the motives for religious deception. Why does religion deceive people? In addition to the acquisition of wealth, religion is very useful in controlling people. If you can get people to believe in outlandish and false claims, then you can have power over them. In particular, if you can get people to think there's an invisible man in the sky who can do awful things to them and that you speak for that invisible man, then obviously they better do what you say or incur the wrath of that invisible man.

You might object at this point and accuse Carlin and me of bias. Neither Carlin nor I believe that there are invisible people in the sky. Of course we then accuse religion of lying to people! But you need to understand that there were people who accused religion of deception long before we came along. Those people are known as "religion." That's right, the people who accuse religion of deception are primarily the religious--all religion aside from their own is a pack of lies.

A good example of this phenomenon is that of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic tradition. Judaism got started when its self-appointed prophets claimed to speak for their own version of the invisible man in the sky. These "prophets" assured their superstitious people that they were the invisible man's chosen people. As such they were free to slaughter men, women, and children to acquire real-estate. Such slaughter was fully justified according to the prophets because the invisible man in the sky ordered it. After all, the invisible man created us, so he can kill whomever he wishes especially when they worship "false" gods.

Judaism's deception worked brilliantly, and some of its own people got in on the act. They decided to take it a step further and have the invisible man come down from the sky and take the form of a visible man. A visible man has the obvious advantage over an invisible man in that you can actually see him or at least see a depiction of him. When Judaism objected to the visible man, the new religion, Christianity, denounced Judaism for rejecting the invisible man come as a visible man. They said that Judaism forfeited its status as the invisible man's religion and now it was they, the Christians, who were the invisible man's chosen people.

Finally, six hundred years after Christianity's deception, another religion took notice of its resounding success and came up with its own deception and called it "Islam." Islam denied the status of the visible man being the invisible man and substituted its own figure as the greatest of all of the invisible man's prophets.

There's so much more to the story of religious deception which we can discuss later. But for now allow me to ask:

Is the religion-is-deception theory a viable explanation of religion?

User avatar
Tcg
Savant
Posts: 8495
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:01 am
Location: Third Stone
Has thanked: 2147 times
Been thanked: 2295 times

Re: facts presented in the OP

Post #11

Post by Tcg »

Jagella wrote:
Tcg wrote:
bjs wrote:
Theories like this don’t hold together rationally and they require ignoring a great deal of empirical evidence and the actual teachings of most religions.
It's hard to evaluate the validity of this claim given that you don't provide any of the, "great deal of empirical evidence", nor any of the, "actual teachings of most religions".

Can you present an extensive collection of this empirical evidence and actual teachings from most religions to support this claim?
The facts presented in the OP are many. Here's but a few:

The false claims of religion are probably believed more than any other lies ever told.
Many religions do teach that there is/are an invisible man/people in the sky.
The(se) invisible man/people will punish people if they disobey the invisible man/people.
Despite these horrible punishments, the "prophets" of the(se) invisible man/people tell us that the(se) invisible man/people love us.
The(se) invisible man/people want the money collected by his/their prophets.
The money collected by the prophets is raked in tax free.
Examples of religions that practice these deceptions include Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all consider the two other faiths and all other faiths as false.

So again, religion belies itself!
I wasn't addressing you at all. I asked bjs to support the claims bjs made. Are you claiming your response addresses the claims made by bjs?

User avatar
Jagella
Banned
Banned
Posts: 3667
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:01 am
Been thanked: 2 times
Contact:

Re: facts presented in the OP

Post #12

Post by Jagella »

[Replying to post 11 by Tcg]
I wasn't addressing you at all. I asked bjs to support the claims bjs made. Are you claiming your response addresses the claims made by bjs?
It's good information for anybody.

User avatar
Jagella
Banned
Banned
Posts: 3667
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:01 am
Been thanked: 2 times
Contact:

Re: The Deception Theory of Religion

Post #13

Post by Jagella »

Jagella wrote: Is the religion-is-deception theory a viable explanation of religion?
Yes, of course the Deception Theory of Religion is a viable explanation for religion. Surely if we accept the judgment of all the religious, then all religions are very elaborate deceptions.

But how do all religions get away with lying to people? For some reason, many people almost seem to want to be lied to. I think it's a form of denial. Many of us cannot accept the harsh realities of life and especially of death, so we prefer to believe that some day it will be different. We want to forever escape our troubled lives in this troubled world and find paradise--call it heaven or Nirvana. No myth, no matter how outlandish, is too much for those of us who so dearly wish to believe it. We can always turn a blind eye to any and all evidence that our comforting myths are not true. It's easy enough to tell the skeptics that their criticisms are false, or we can just ignore the skeptics.

Personally, I prefer to believe in reality just as it is--warts and all. Religion's version of hope seems not only surely a lie, but I wouldn't want it even if it was true. It seems boring and even a hell of sorts. To spend eternity in the places posited by religion I find to be a frightening idea. The real world seems much better; nobody ever suffers here forever. And all the contrived tales of religion can't hold a candle to the amazing facts uncovered by science. These stories have a distinct advantage of actually being true!

RightReason
Under Probation
Posts: 1569
Joined: Sat May 20, 2017 6:26 pm
Been thanked: 16 times

Re: The Deception Theory of Religion

Post #14

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to Jagella]
And all the contrived tales of religion can't hold a candle to the amazing facts uncovered by science.
Because the as you put it “contrived tales of religion� are not the end. God is the end. The so called stories pertaining to or relating to God aren’t God, so no, they will not hold a candle to much. Though odd to say they won’t hold a candle to the facts uncovered by science – as if scientific fact is somehow the end game. Any amazing fact uncovered by science is simply followed by a million more facts uncovered by science, making each previous fact seem less and less amazing. The thing about desire for knowledge is that it can never be completely obtained so again it isn’t our source of joy/pleasure – it is simply a means to an end. We long to know truth. Does learning a new species of bird exists bring us closer to Truth? Will we now be satiated? If not, can one say our ultimate joy comes from scientific knowledge?

If you ever have the time, listen to this . . .

Religion and the opening up of the mind:


It might help you understand why your “religion is a mental illness� and “Deception theory� is pretty much tired atheist claptrap.

User avatar
Jagella
Banned
Banned
Posts: 3667
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 12:01 am
Been thanked: 2 times
Contact:

Re: The Deception Theory of Religion

Post #15

Post by Jagella »

[Replying to post 14 by RightReason]
Because the as you put it “contrived tales of religion� are not the end. God is the end. The so called stories pertaining to or relating to God aren’t God, so no, they will not hold a candle to much.
I wasn't comparing the contrived tales of religion to "God," so I'm not sure why you're bringing up this issue. I was comparing the lies of religion to the discoveries of science.
Though odd to say they won’t hold a candle to the facts uncovered by science – as if scientific fact is somehow the end game.
I'm not sure what you mean by "end game," but scientific discoveries are independently verifiable and are very useful. This very forum is made possible by science. Science sure beats all the "false promises and exaggerated claims" of religion. What has religion given us aside from war, fanaticism, superstition, and ignorance?
Any amazing fact uncovered by science is simply followed by a million more facts uncovered by science, making each previous fact seem less and less amazing.
Not always. Some scientific discoveries pass the test of time very well. Darwin's Theory of Evolution, for example, is stronger than ever. Compare that theory to all of the claims of religion that need to be taken on blind faith.
The thing about desire for knowledge is that it can never be completely obtained so again it isn’t our source of joy/pleasure – it is simply a means to an end.
I love to learn. It brings me a certain amount of joy.
We long to know truth.
Not always. Those times we resist the truth is known as "religion."
Does learning a new species of bird exists bring us closer to Truth?
Yes. A discovery is new knowledge.
If you ever have the time, listen to this . . .

Religion and the opening up of the mind:


It might help you understand why your “religion is a mental illness� and “Deception theory� is pretty much tired atheist claptrap.
I watched the whole video. How does it demonstrate that my theories of religion are "atheist claptrap"? I must wonder if the priest in the video would conclude that his own church's cover-up of pedophile priests is not a deception on the part of his own religion.

And if you have read the OP, I explained there that it is not so much atheists who have accused religion of deception, but it is religion that has accused religion of deception. We atheists are just agreeing with religion on that issue.

RightReason
Under Probation
Posts: 1569
Joined: Sat May 20, 2017 6:26 pm
Been thanked: 16 times

Re: The Deception Theory of Religion

Post #16

Post by RightReason »

[Replying to Jagella]
I wasn't comparing the contrived tales of religion to "God," so I'm not sure why you're bringing up this issue. I was comparing the lies of religion to the discoveries of science.
Like what? I am pretty confident you won’t find a contradiction between my religion and science -- as there is no contradiction between science and religion. I’m sure you could find some religious group that adheres to that which science contradicts, but there are also plenty of weird nonreligious groups that do the same thing. Your point?

I'm not sure what you mean by "end game," but scientific discoveries are independently verifiable and are very useful.
Uuummm . . . agreed.
Science sure beats all the "false promises and exaggerated claims" of religion.
What do you mean beats? And what false claims and promises are you referring?
What has religion given us aside from war, fanaticism, superstition, and ignorance?
Uummm . . . pretty sure I could take the word religion out and replace it with mankind in your above statement. You do realize religion is not a precursor to war, fanaticism, superstition, or ignorance, right? Or is it just your superstition or ignorance that it is?

Not always. Some scientific discoveries pass the test of time very well. Darwin's Theory of Evolution, for example, is stronger than ever.
Darwin’s theory wasn’t spot on . . .

He was wrong about the age of the earth as well as the mechanisms of variation among individuals.

https://www.britannica.com/list/what-da ... -evolution

Also, let’s not forget who corrected what Darwin got wrong, Gregor Mendel. Who was he? – oh, that’s right a religious monk. Whaaaaaaaaaat?

https://www.wired.com/2014/12/fantastic ... y-screwed/

Compare that theory to all of the claims of religion that need to be taken on blind faith.
Why would you compare a religious claim that deals with the supernatural to science that deals with the natural world? Ever hear of apples and oranges?
I love to learn. It brings me a certain amount of joy.
Bingo. So, it isn’t the facts that you are learning that is the source of the joy. And why does learning give you joy? Why do you wish to learn? See religion and the opening up of the mind to help you answer.

Quote:
We long to know truth.


Not always. Those times we resist the truth is known as "religion."
Please prove resisting truth is religion.

Quote:
If you ever have the time, listen to this . . .

Religion and the opening up of the mind:


It might help you understand why your “religion is a mental illness� and “Deception theory� is pretty much tired atheist claptrap.


I watched the whole video. How does it demonstrate that my theories of religion are "atheist claptrap"? I must wonder if the priest in the video would conclude that his own church's cover-up of pedophile priests is not a deception on the part of his own religion.
I think maybe you just proved your own hostility toward religion. When a person can’t address the topic or has nothing of substance left to say, he will inevitably play the church sex abuse card. If you really did watch the whole video and did not see the flaws in your seeing religion as a mental illness, then I would be remiss to not call into question your own mental state.
And if you have read the OP, I explained there that it is not so much atheists who have accused religion of deception, but it is religion that has accused religion of deception. We atheists are just agreeing with religion on that issue.
Again, deception is deception. I will call it if I see it in the secular world or if I see it in religious – both can be guilty of such. You seem to be unable to acknowledge this fact.

User avatar
rikuoamero
Under Probation
Posts: 6707
Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:06 pm
Been thanked: 4 times

Post #17

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 5 by Overcomer]
Question: Would you die for something you knew was a lie? Would you allow yourself to be imprisoned and beaten and, finally, killed because you wanted to deceive people into believing that lie?
Yes.

Did I surprise you, Overcomer? If I became convinced that there was some sort of greater good to be achieved by convincing other people of something I know to be false, and that in order to sell this idea, I have to die...then so be it.
Of course...what this greater good actually is, I cannot say, because at this moment in time, there is no such thing that I think actually requires my deceiving others and my own death...but can you actually say, with actual knowledge, that this is NOT what happened to the apostles?
Or would you die because you saw someone who you knew for certain was dead walking the earth once again and you knew that he truly was the Son of God?
Or would I deny that my master is God in human form three times, even after travelling with him for three years and seeing him perform resurrections on other people...or would I take a sum of money and betray him to the authorities, even after travelling with him for about three years and seeing him perform miracles?

The credibility of the apostles is not as clear cut as you try to portray them, Overcomer, not least because we have nothing we can definitely say is from them.
Both Peter and Judas, in your very own Christian texts, do or say something that they know is false, but try to pass it off as truth.
What say you now, Overcomer?
Image

Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"

I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead

Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

User avatar
Willum
Savant
Posts: 9017
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:14 pm
Location: Yahweh's Burial Place
Has thanked: 35 times
Been thanked: 82 times

Post #18

Post by Willum »

[Replying to post 17 by rikuoamero]

There is so much wisdom in your statement riku.
Do people die over quantum mechanics? Did Galileo allow himself to be martyred over a correct model of the solar system?
No, obviously.

People never die for the truth, they point at it and shrug their shoulders, because it can't be changed.
Now a lie, particularly a lie that is a belief, people die over.

Did people die over evolution? No. Were people killed or persecuted by people whose beliefs it contradicted? Yes.

But it is always the people with the belief rather than the truth doing the killing...

DPMartin
Banned
Banned
Posts: 127
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:58 pm

Re: The Deception Theory of Religion

Post #19

Post by DPMartin »

[Replying to post 1 by Jagella]

George Carlin? really? a dope smoking comedian that would say what ever to get a paycheck for a laugh. entertainers lie for a living, or didn't you know that? how can that be great, a liar getting paid to lie accusing liars. so what.

jgh7

Post #20

Post by jgh7 »

rikuoamero wrote: [Replying to post 5 by Overcomer]
Question: Would you die for something you knew was a lie? Would you allow yourself to be imprisoned and beaten and, finally, killed because you wanted to deceive people into believing that lie?
Yes.

Did I surprise you, Overcomer? If I became convinced that there was some sort of greater good to be achieved by convincing other people of something I know to be false, and that in order to sell this idea, I have to die...then so be it.
Of course...what this greater good actually is, I cannot say, because at this moment in time, there is no such thing that I think actually requires my deceiving others and my own death...but can you actually say, with actual knowledge, that this is NOT what happened to the apostles?
State an actual detailed theory, not a vague idea you have in your head. What in your mind did the apostles believe to be a lie but still went so far as to be tortured and die for that lie? What were their reasons and motivations? It sounds nonsensical. When people go so far as to die for something, it makes much more sense to say it's because they believe it's the truth, not because they believe it's a made up lie.

Post Reply