If you worship Jesus Christ

[Elijah John]

If you worship Jesus Christ, or Jesus and Father Yahweh, what would it take for you to turn your worship and devotion to Yahweh alone?

After all, isn't this what Jesus really taught?

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 10 by William]

It seems you are attempting to pit panentheism and some world religions against the Abrahamic way of relating to the Divine. Do you see any commonalities? Any places of overlap?

I do. I'll try to enumerate them when I have more time to provide a more thoughtful answer.

And I'll try to address your post in a more point by point manner. I was well underway, but my computer seems to have a mind of it's own at times, and cut my post short.

All the best.

[William]

[Replying to post 11 by Elijah John]

It seems you are attempting to pit panentheism and some world religions against the Abrahamic way of relating to the Divine.

Not at all. Rather, I am attempting to engage with your reasoning to do with'other great religions' and your assertions in the other thread [here] to do with your belief in YHVH being divine and the divine reality at it's core, and this core is in harmony with other great, world religions.

I want to see how sincere you actually are about this, as a method of sorting wheat from chaff.

Also, it seems a bit rich to be saying that I seem to be attempting to pit panentheism and some world religions against the Abrahamic way of relating to the Divine, when it is an historical fact that it is the "Abrahamic way of relating to the Divine" which has pitted itself against the rest of the world.

Do you see any commonalities? Any places of overlap?

Yes. This is why I engaged with this particular material, which I think can be considered divinely inspired and certainly just as relevant as anything coming from Organised Abrahamic Religions.

That is why I shared it. To see if YOU see any commonalities.

I do. I'll try to enumerate them when I have more time to provide a more thoughtful answer.
And I'll try to address your post in a more point by point manner. I was well underway, but my computer seems to have a mind of it's own at times, and cut my post short.

All the best.

That would be appreciated. I suggest that when doing so, you drop the notion that this has anything to do with competing religions, or pitting one thing against the other.

I pray the HS deals with the ghost in your machine.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 12 by William]

OK, that was not personal. I accept your explanation that it is not you who is pitting one religious tradition against another.

You may or may not realize that Jews do not believe one must become a Jew, (or a Christian for that matter) in order to have a "portion in the world to come". What Christians would call being "saved". They allow for "righteous Gentiles".

Yes, I see commonality in all of the world's great religions. Even Judaism, Christianity and Islam have their mystical traditions. Judaism has the Kabbalah, Islam the Sufi tradition.

And regarding ethics, they all preach variations of the Golden Rule.

And I accept the teaching of Pope John Paul II that the Holy Spirit, (I would say the Holy Spirit of YHVH) is active in all of the world's great religions, in whatever is beautiful and true in those particular religions. That is the work of the Holy Spirit according to the Pope.

I see Jesus, not as "God" but as a righteous man filled with the Holy Spirit of God.

Surprised?

Yea, in their essence, all of the ethical religons are linked. In this I differ with John 14.6 Fundamentalists.

[William]

[Replying to post 13 by Elijah John]

The only things I would say in reply to your post is that this isn't just happening from 'the worlds great religions' but also and perhaps even especially with individuals who are not affiliated with the worlds great religions.

Also, I would advise anyone to contemplate the wisdom that it is pointless debating with people who believe any of their religions writ as being 'the word of GOD' or for that matter, their particular religious organization as being the true one, as those who have succumb to the temptation to believe such to be true are - for the most part - beyond anyone's ability to reason with.

The First Source is not to be discovered in any book, or in any organization.

First Source
First Source is the primal source from which all existence is ultimately linked. It is sometimes referred to as the Body of the Collective God. It represents the overarching consciousness of all things unified. This includes pain, joy, suffering, light, love, darkness, fear; all expressions and conditions are integrated and purposeful in the context of Prime Creator. IT encompasses all things and unifies them in an all-inclusive consciousness that evolves and grows in a similar manner to how each individuated spirit evolves and grows.

In most cultures where the term "god" or "goddess" is used to define this omnipotent power, it often represents an entity that has evolved beyond the range of human comprehension and who manifests magical powers like manipulating the natural elements through thought or manifesting as non-corporeal Light Beings. These manifestations are described and depicted in virtually all cultures of the human race through its religious texts and mythology. While these may be entities that are highly evolved in their abilities and knowledge, they should not be confused with First Source.

First Source is not a manifestation, but rather a consciousness that inhabits all time, space, energy, matter, form, intent; as well as all non-time, non-space, non-mater, non-energy, non-form, and non-intent. It is the only consciousness that unifies all states of being into one Being. And this Being is First Source. It is a growing, expanding, and inexplicable consciousness that organizes the collective experience of all states of being into a coherent plan of creation; expansion and colonization into the realms of creation; and the inclusion of creation into Source Reality-the home of First Source.

This Being pervades the universe as the sum of experience in time and non-time. It has encoded ITSELF within all life as a vibration of frequency. This frequency is not perceptible to the three-dimensional, five sensory context of the human instrument, which can only detect a faint echo of this vibration. First Source is present in all. And all are able to contact First Source through this tone-vibration of equality. Prayers of supplication do not stir First Source to response. Only the core expression of the individual's tone-vibration of equality will be successful in contacting First Source in a meaningful way.

First Source has many lower faces. These faces are often thought to be God Itself, but Gods are only a dimensional aspect of First Source and there are many faces of God as well. The Hierarchy has made this manifest, not Prime Creator. First Source is not beholden to any law nor does IT operate in conjunction with any other force or power. IT is truly sovereign and ubiquitous simultaneously, and thus, Unique. IT is not hidden or wary of life in any way. IT simply is Unique, and therefore, incomprehensible except through the vibration encoded within all life.

The other faces of God have been created so the human instrument can fathom First Source and crystallize an image of this Unique Being sufficient to progress through the Hierarchy and access the Sovereign Integral perspective. Nevertheless, what you hold as God, is not Prime Creator, but a facet of First Source developed by the Hierarchy as a comprehensible interpretation of First Source. We must tell you that these "interpretations" have been exceedingly inadequate in their portrayal.

Because First Source is Unique unto all creation, IT is indescribable, unfathomable, and incomprehensible other than through the tone-vibration of equality stored in the entity level of the human instrument and accessible through the core expression of the entity. Until there is a sufficient number of individuals who operate from the Sovereign Integral consciousness, the genetic mind will make access to this vibration difficult to achieve.

https://www.wingmakers.us/wingmakersori ... sary.shtml

[Elijah John]

The only things I would say in reply to your post is that this isn't just happening from 'the worlds great religions' but also and perhaps even especially with individuals who are not affiliated with the worlds great religions.

Good point. Even in the Bible there have been "free lancers" like Melchizadek led by the Spirit of God.

Also, I would advise anyone to contemplate the wisdom that it is pointless debating with people who believe any of their religions writ as being 'the word of GOD' or for that matter, their particular religious organization as being the true one, as those who have succumb to the temptation to believe such to be true are - for the most part - beyond anyone's ability to reason with.

We can try, but "converts" are seldom won via debate. For some reason, some are threatened by the prospect that the Divine cannot be contained and limited to their own sect.

You have chosen your path, I mine. Mine is best....for me.

If you are interested in panentheism in a Christian context, I understand that Paul Tillich teaches that. Also, Marcus Borg seems heading in that direction as well. God as "Ground of Being" .

Also, you mentioned that God is beyond names, and it is not the particular name of God that matters, but God's character (God's nature?)

"YHVH" means "I AM". I see that as a way of saying the "Ground of Being". Existence, reality itself. Could it be that Moses (who received the Name) was a bit of a mystic as well as the lawgiver?

I would agree that God is beyond names. But for those wishing to relate to God in a Judeo-Christian context, "YHVH" is THE name for God, however one pronounces the Name today. Yes, the name is not the entity itself, but for many it is a link to the Divine. Consider how King David uses the Divine Name LORD (YHVH) in the Psalms. The Name is a focal point for prayer.

For Jesus-worshiping Christians, though, it seems that "Jesus" has replaced Jehovah as the "name above all names". The most important name for them.

From my point of view, it's a shame to put a man's name above God's.

[William]

[Replying to post 15 by Elijah John]

I would agree that God is beyond names. But for those wishing to relate to God in a Judeo-Christian context, "YHVH" is THE name for God, however one pronounces the Name today. Yes, the name is not the entity itself, but for many it is a link to the Divine. Consider how King David uses the Divine Name LORD (YHVH) in the Psalms. The Name is a focal point for prayer.

For Jesus-worshiping Christians, though, it seems that "Jesus" has replaced Jehovah as the "name above all names". The most important name for them.

From my point of view, it's a shame to put a man's name above God's.

I think this is where you get wobbly-wheeled.

It doesn't matter if you feel there is some kind of link to the Divine in a name you associate with the divine, and if you think that it does, then you would have to allow for that in others...which you don't.

I think that any link evident with the [divine] can be seen in one's sincere external expressions as a kind of mirroring effect - ones character mirrors that of ones idea of GOD anyway - so the closer one is to understanding the character of First Source, the better one is enabled to reflect that into the world. There are lesser ideas of GOD perpetuated by all the great religions, and this also reflects into the world., and not always for good.

Anyone can announce "I AM". Look closely at my own name. What does it matter? Is there power in a name? Does naming something or someone give you some power over that something or someone, in some way? Is this what Moses the Mystic understood?

There really is no name for First Source. The best anyone can do is attribute title. Some light beings desire we attribute our inner spark to them, and in doing so, worship them as our creator. The 'secret' is we don't have a 'creator' - we are all aspects of First Source Consciousness and as such - have always existed - are already divine, and if we understood this of ourselves and each other, this would be reflected into the external world, and in that, the world would be a different place than it currently is.

Jesus spoke to this. If you perceive some kind of competition between your GOD YHWH and Jesus, then YHWH is not First Source.

Some link the name 'Jesus' with Zeus. Some use the Hebrew name Yeshua.
Yeshua conveys the idea that GOD 'delivers/saves'.

Many feel that they need saving. Therein is the attraction. But really, we do not need saving, unless it is saving from our own ignorance inherited through organised religion.

We need to realize we are aspects of First Source Consciousness and in that be activated. Some see no difference between being 'saved' and being 'activated' so, whatever floats one's boat.

Point being, if one thinks in terms of being 'saved' one is subject to doctrines built around that idea which are not focused upon activation and self responsibility, love and understanding and this too reflects into the external world and contributes to the reasons why the world is as it is.

It is all part of the process of reintegration, and the more that individuals peel away the layers of pretense which hide that inner core - not only from the world, but from the individuals themselves, the closer they come to the realization which enables the activation.

Jesus was obviously something of a Panentheist and the fact that he is never recorded naming GOD "YHWH", underlines his attitude to the authorities running the religions - If YWHW is indeed who you claim through your beliefs, then the name has been sufficiently defiled that it counts as a negative and that can never be restored.

Some may argue that this is also the case with Jesus, due to how Christendom has defiled that name, and they would be correct for the same reasons.

Murdering one another over who's GODs 'name' is the right one to use, defiles all those names and brings shame on the very idea of GOD.

What is 'worship'?

All of your religions teach the worship of a deity and a doctrine of human salvation. It is the underlying kinship of your planet’s religions. However, I am not the deity that your worship falls upon, nor am I the creator of your doctrines of human salvation. Worship of me in coin or moral consideration is unnecessary.

Simply express your authentic feelings of appreciation to my inmost presence within you and others, and you broadcast your worship unfailingly into my realm.

(I think that is the better example of a great answer to the question;)

This is the feeling that you should seek to preserve in the face of life’s distractions. This is the revelation of my heart to your heart. Live in clarity. Live in purpose. Live in the knowledge that you are in me and I am in you, and that there is no place separate from our heart. ~ Excerpt from Chamber 23—One of three written elements from the body of work known as the WingMakers, ascribed to First Source.

[Elijah John]

It doesn't matter if you feel there is some kind of link to the Divine in a name you associate with the divine, and if you think that it does, then you would have to allow for that in others...which you don't.

I'm going to stop you right there. You charge that I don't allow others their varying links to the Divine? I think that is an unfair, and unfoiunded charge. Where did I EVER say that my way is the only way?

I never even said that the way I have found to God is the best way. Only that access by the Name is the best way....for me. Remember?

Of course I "allow" others there own way to God, you speak as though it was in my power to prevent it. I have found Him via His name, I encourage others to do the same, but respect the fact that others have found Him through "Christ, though the Torah or the Qur'an", the Tao, etc., in spite of what I see as error in those other paths. None of them is completely wrong, and I admit the possibility that I too, could be wrong, and not have the "whole Truth".

If I seem antagonistic to the other paths at times, don't forget. This is a debating site, a marketplace for competing ideas. So of course I advocate for the Way I have found. Just as you do for your Panentheistic perspective. But that is not to say the other paths have nothing to offer. They do.

Hope that clarifies things.

[William]

[Replying to post 17 by Elijah John]

I'm going to stop you right there. You charge that I don't allow others their varying links to the Divine? I think that is an unfair, and unfoiunded charge. Where did I EVER say that my way is the only way?

I never even said that the way I have found to God is the best way. Only that access by the Name is the best way....for me. Remember?

Yes I remember. It was a very recent declaration from you. A post or two back recent. However, I gave adequate reasons for why I think this is not the established case right now. You appear to be at a place of redefining your position, but clearly based on the evidence of the threads you have started over the weeks, one is excused for thinking you haven't always held the idea that what is good for the goose is good for the gander, so to speak.

Of course I "allow" others there own way to God, you speak as though it was in my power to prevent it. I have found Him via His name, I encourage others to do the same, but respect the fact that others have found Him through "Christ, though the Torah or the Qur'an", the Tao, etc., in spite of what I see as error in those other paths. None of them is completely wrong, and I admit the possibility that I too, could be wrong, and not have the "whole Truth".

Well there you go.

Perhaps when you can write the word 'allow' without the [""] it will be more realized within your character and verified in your external expressions.

What I speak to, re 'what is in your power to prevent' I speak to your ability to prevent yourself from expressing your distaste in what others do while proclaiming what you do as being acceptable, when these things are much the much a sameness.

Removing the mote from one's eye is another way of saying the same thing. That is what I am speaking to. You do not have the power to remove perceived motes from the eyes of other beliefs you chastise. You do have the power to remove the mote from your own eye. That is what I am speaking to. I understand your concerns as to why you have been doing so, and have already spoken to those.

If I seem antagonistic to the other paths at times, don't forget. This is a debating site, a marketplace for competing ideas. So of course I advocate for the Way I have found. Just as you do for your Panentheistic perspective. But that is not to say the other paths have nothing to offer. They do.

Hope that clarifies things.

Debating can have at least 2 purposes. Feeding the ego, or seeking ways in which we all can get on the same page. Panentheism is about getting on the same page.

Hopefully this has cleared any confusion. I hope you are interested in addressing the rest of my points Elijah John.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 18 by William]

This is a debating site. We all advocate one position or point of view over another. It does not mean that opposing points of view or religions have no value. In fact, if you are familiar with many of my posts, I frequently champion the good in all the great religions.

It is Fundamentalism that I find most off-putting. But I see good in some Fundamentalists as well, and do not deny that many have found God via a more literal interpretation of the Bible. I'm related to some.

Can we stop the personal attacks now? I am not the subject of this tread, though you seem to be attempting to make it that way.

If not, I'm done with this discussion.

[brianbbs67]

If you worship Jesus Christ, or Jesus and Father Yahweh, what would it take for you to turn your worship and devotion to Yahweh alone?

After all, isn't this what Jesus really taught?

Yes, it is what he taught and there can be no real argument there. Somewhere in the last 30 years, churches have turned to Jesus worship. Jesus(Yeshua) always deferred to God, as we should also.

So we should pray only to the Lord and If Christ is somehow the same, praying to God only covers that also. Praying to God is always good.