Should we live by good maxims?

[marco]

We have countless proverbs that give us wise counsel. In his parables Jesus illustrates the same type of wise advice. Is it enough that we do good to others and try to live honourably, without accompanying mantras?


I say this because countless multitudes have, in serving their God, harmed humanity. Surely service to God should never lead to atrocities, since God, the recipient of man's offered service, would surely not allow it to harm his creations. And yet he seems to.


So is God an unnecessary addition to our life of good works? Is the service of mankind preferable to serving a deity?

[Jagella]

[Replying to post 49 by RightReason]

I am not attacking you personally at all.

But you did. You got into trouble for doing so--twice. The proof is right on the previous page.

Yes he did. He preached that they should prepare for that end of the world he falsely claimed was coming soon. In so doing they were to hate their families for him. He also said he wanted to break up families.

Again with the half truths.

Here's the proof for Jesus' false prophecy that the world would end soon from Matthew 24:33-35 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he[a] is near, at the very gates. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

Here's the proof for his preaching hate and his breaking up families: Luke 14:25-27 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

The Cost of Discipleship
25 Now large crowds were traveling with him; and he turned and said to them, 26 “Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple. 27 Whoever does not carry the cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

There are doctors who have scammed people out of money...

Yes, and they're crooks too. Just because other people are crooks doesn't mean the clergy aren't crooks.

Salman Rushdie has been married four times. He left one wife and moved onto the next. Surely his wives were victimized by his actions.

OK, Salmon Rushdie has been married four times. That's not good. He may have victimized his wives. But I should have asked how secular humanism has been used to victimize people.

By the way, you didn't respond to that graphic I posted that reveals that the Bible god ordered people to eat their own children if they didn't obey him. Leviticus 26:

But if, despite this, you disobey me, and continue hostile to me, I will continue hostile to you in fury; I in turn will punish you myself sevenfold for your sins. You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters.

Now, try to say I'm lying about this. I post all of my Bible quotations word-for-word. Copy and paste right out of an online Bible into this forum.

[RightReason]

[Replying to Jagella]

Quote:
I am not attacking you personally at all.


But you did. You got into trouble for doing so--twice. The proof is right on the previous page.

I got warned and advised to avoid the word "you" and "your" when they are to be followed by negative comments. It was explained that many posters, yourself included, can get away with insults as long as the insult is generalized -- like toward Christians or Religion or Jesus. That’s all fair game. Of course a Christian or religious person cannot complain about such comments or take them personally as long as the poster avoids any personal pronouns. I need to just sit back at listen to you illogically claim all clergy and Christians scam people. I mean even though I’m a Christian and have many good friends who are clergy I shouldn’t take what you said personally. Semantics.

Here's the proof for Jesus' false prophecy that the world would end soon from Matthew 24:33-35 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)


Quote:
33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he[a] is near, at the very gates. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will not pass away.

There are so many explanations of this passage that you obviously have not considered. A quick Google search turns up these as some examples proving Jesus was not making a false prophecy, but you clearly are making a false interpretation . . .

http://biblehub.com/commentaries/matthew/24-34.htm

Here's the proof for his preaching hate and his breaking up families: Luke 14:25-27 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)


Quote:
The Cost of Discipleship
25 Now large crowds were traveling with him; and he turned and said to them, 26 “Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple. 27 Whoever does not carry the cross and follow me cannot be my disciple.

<sigh> Jesus is not demanding that you literally hate your family. He is using hyperbole to illustrate the steep cost of following him. How do you not get this? Clearly, as I already mentioned Jesus desires us to love one another. There is much of Scripture you leave out because it doesn’t fit your agenda

1 John 4:7-8 says "Beloved, let us love one another for love is from God and everyone that loves is born of God and knows God. The one who does not love does not know God for God is love."

Quote:
There are doctors who have scammed people out of money...


Yes, and they're crooks too. Just because other people are crooks doesn't mean the clergy aren't crooks.

And just because some clergy are crooks doesn’t mean all clergy are crooks. See how that works?

Quote:
But if, despite this, you disobey me, and continue hostile to me, I will continue hostile to you in fury; I in turn will punish you myself sevenfold for your sins. You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters.

<sigh> once again. The eating the flesh of your children was a prophecy. It is what the people actually did because they had turned away from God. Once again you do not know your Scripture

Now, try to say I'm lying about this. I post all of my Bible quotations word-for-word. Copy and paste right out of an online Bible into this forum.

Oh, I have no problem with the Scripture -- too bad your interpretation is flawed. First, the Bible is to be read as a whole. You need to know the context, the audience, passages leading up to whatever verse you are referring and passages that come after. At least now I can understand why you rejected Christianity – you don’t even know what it is.

[Elijah John]

I got warned and advised to avoid the word "you" and "your" when they are to be followed by negative comments. It was explained that many posters, yourself included, can get away with insults as long as the insult is generalized -- like toward Christians or Religion or Jesus. That’s all fair game. Of course a Christian or religious person cannot complain about such comments or take them personally as long as the poster avoids any personal pronouns. I need to just sit back at listen to you illogically claim all clergy and Christians scam people.

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Jagella, please be advised to choose your words more carefully in order to avoid such blanket statments. In this way you will avoid site sanctions, as well as avoid giving needless offense. Thank you.

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[Kenisaw]

I say this because countless multitudes have, in serving their God, harmed humanity. Surely service to God should never lead to atrocities, since God, the recipient of man's offered service, would surely not allow it to harm his creations. And yet he seems to.

Does this make Noah an accessory to an atrocity I wonder?

[marco]

Does this make Noah an accessory to an atrocity I wonder?

Fortunately the Ark wasn't built, the tale being fiction. But if we accept the content as true Noah served himself by carrying out God's absurd suggestions. I think the writers intended us to believe Noah, like Abraham when asked to kill his son, had no choice. God of the Bible is not to be denied.

[Jagella]

[Replying to post 52 by RightReason]

It was explained that many posters, yourself included, can get away with insults as long as the insult is generalized -- like toward Christians or Religion or Jesus. That’s all fair game. Of course a Christian or religious person cannot complain about such comments or take them personally as long as the poster avoids any personal pronouns. I need to just sit back at listen to you illogically claim all clergy and Christians scam people. I mean even though I’m a Christian and have many good friends who are clergy I shouldn’t take what you said personally. Semantics.

Actually, almost all of my friends are Christians. My friend Ginger, for example, thinks I'm very kind. I wish to protect Ginger and my other Christian friends from any kind of harm including financial harm. I know from both personal experience and from research that it is very common for Christian organizations to take money under very questionable circumstances.

I just wish people would cut out these middle-men and help people directly. It's not hard to find people who can use help, and most neighborhoods have elderly people, disabled people, and single mothers. Visit the elderly and the disabled. Go see a movie with them. Offer to babysit for a single mother while she needs to work. There's so much good to be done right where we are with people we know. The advantage of this direct approach is that it's much more likely to get the resources to the people who really need them.

There are so many explanations of this passage that you obviously have not considered. A quick Google search turns up these as some examples proving Jesus was not making a false prophecy...

Oh sure, but the advantage of my interpretation is that it makes fewer assumptions than those interpretations. Moreover, apologists' interpretations are based on the dogma that Jesus cannot be a false prophet. I have no such dogmas to believe in. I just interpret passages like Matthew 24:33-35 for what they say. So when Jesus says his generation won't pass away until his apocalyptic prophecies occur, then that's what he meant. His generation is long gone, and nothing he predicted has happened. So he was wrong.

<sigh>

This is rough stuff! Discussing our cherished beliefs with people who think differently than we do can be upsetting.

Jesus is not demanding that you literally hate your family. He is using hyperbole to illustrate the steep cost of following him. How do you not get this?

I "don't get it" because what you're saying appears nowhere in the text of Luke 14:25-27. You are adding your own words to that passage.

1 John 4:7-8 says "Beloved, let us love one another for love is from God and everyone that loves is born of God and knows God. The one who does not love does not know God for God is love."

This is a different passage from a different book written by a different author and does not change Jesus order to hate in Luke. People can be hateful some times and loving at other times.

And just because some clergy are crooks doesn’t mean all clergy are crooks. See how that works?

Yes, but why take the chance? Not all wild animals bite, but I won't push my luck!

The eating the flesh of your children was a prophecy. It is what the people actually did because they had turned away from God. Once again you do not know your Scripture

Forcing people to cannibalize their own kids is OK if they "turn away from God"? Who wouldn't want to turn away from a god who demands cannibalism?

First, the Bible is to be read as a whole.

Says who? And how exactly is anybody to read a 1,000+ page book "as a whole"?

At least now I can understand why you rejected Christianity – you don’t even know what it is.

Kick me right in the head! You sure know how to hurt a guy. LOL

[Monta]

[Replying to post 37 by Jagella]


"The practice of faith healing attributed to Jesus is a very cruel lie. I should know because I was conned out of a lot of money by the faith-healing scam."


Some would say the same about chemotherapy.

[RightReason]

[Replying to Jagella]

Actually, almost all of my friends are Christians.

LOL! Reminds me when a racist says, “Some of my best friends are black� as if that excuses the bigotry.

I know from both personal experience and from research that it is very common for Christian organizations to take money under very questionable circumstances.

I know from both personal experience and from research that it is very common for cops to take money under very questionable circumstances. OR I know from both personal experience and from research that it is very common for family members to take money under very questionable circumstances.

Does this mean we can generalize that police officers are bad and people should steer clear of them? Does this mean we ought to do away with families?

I just wish people would cut out these middle-men and help people directly.

They do all the time and research shows it is often religious people who give more to charity and help others.

Charitable giving is highest among the most religious

https://www.americamagazine.org/content ... ilanthropy

Oh sure, but the advantage of my interpretation is that it makes fewer assumptions than those interpretations.

Is that an assumption?

Moreover, apologists' interpretations are based on the dogma that Jesus cannot be a false prophet.

Christians, like any reasonable studier of the written word, know single verses should not be read in isolation. And no human being can be judged/evaluated on a single sentence or two. It is necessary to look at all that is said, the context in which it was said, and how it relates to what else has been said. Also, to recognize human beings use metaphor and hyperbole in conversation as well. This is common sense and how human beings relate to one another on a daily basis.

when Jesus says his generation won't pass away until his apocalyptic prophecies occur, then that's what he meant. His generation is long gone, and nothing he predicted has happened. So he was wrong.

Today, we consider a generation 10 years. It used to be considered 30-40 years. The words of Jesus referred to the destruction of the city and temple. That is what would happen in the lifetime of some of those standing there, which is exactly what happened.

There also could be a general term generation simply referring to whatever group/people are hearing the message (generation simply referring to the human race). The Bible says referring to Mary, “All generations shall call me blessed�. It was a way of describing anyone currently hearing these words AND anyone to come.

.

Quote:
Jesus is not demanding that you literally hate your family. He is using hyperbole to illustrate the steep cost of following him. How do you not get this?


I "don't get it" because what you're saying appears nowhere in the text of Luke 14:25-27. You are adding your own words to that passage.

Mine is a more thorough analysis. It would be like someone taking a single line of a parent to their child, “I have no intention of being your friend. I am your parent�. And declaring that parent said he doesn’t like his kid and they aren’t friends.

People can be hateful some times and loving at other times.

Bingo. Certain situations call for knowing when to stay, remain, and try to work things out verse removing someone from your life because they are causing you harm and it is unhealthy to remain in a situation even though you are still called to always love. We can love a person while hating what a person stands for or recognizing it is unhealthy to have them in our lives.

Quote:
And just because some clergy are crooks doesn’t mean all clergy are crooks. See how that works?


Yes, but why take the chance? Not all wild animals bite, but I won't push my luck!

Some spouses are jerks. So, why take the chance in marriage? Let’s just call all marriage stupid and do away with the family since clearly so many marriages have ended in divorce.

Quote:
The eating the flesh of your children was a prophecy. It is what the people actually did because they had turned away from God. Once again you do not know your Scripture


Forcing people to cannibalize their own kids is OK if they "turn away from God"? Who wouldn't want to turn away from a god who demands cannibalism?

Again you do not understand the Scripture. God did not force them to eat their children – He predicted it. That is precisely what they did – what happened – when they turned their backs on Him. It is what they resorted to.

Kind of like saying, “If you don’t stop down this road you are going, you will become a drug addict and your life will spiral out of control.� Well, years later when the person is a junkie, you don’t get to say, “You made me a junkie because I chose this way of life instead of you.�

Quote:
First, the Bible is to be read as a whole.


Says who?

Every historian, literary scholar, biblical scholar, and theologian.

And how exactly is anybody to read a 1,000+ page book "as a whole"?

How could you not? It all builds on each other. There is foreshadowing and prediction and prophecy. Much of the OT refers to the NT and the NT refers to the OT and certain passages only make sense if one is knowledgeable of previous passages.

[Kenisaw]

First, the Bible is to be read as a whole. You need to know the context, the audience, passages leading up to whatever verse you are referring and passages that come after. .

I read the whole thing. It's one of the reasons I became an atheist. Read the whole thing, and think about the number of contradictions in it...

https://infidels.org/library/modern/don ... tions.html

[RightReason]

[Replying to Kenisaw]

I read the whole thing. It's one of the reasons I became an atheist. Read the whole thing, and think about the number of contradictions in it...

https://infidels.org/library/modern/don ... tions.html

These lists from non believers crack me up. Take this for example from the site;

GE 1:20-21, 26-27 Birds were created before man was created.
GE 2:7, 19 Man was created before birds were created.

Sorry, but read those verses -- there is no inconsistency. Not to mention not all of Genesis is literal. God doesn't work in time like we do. The purpose of the story is not about which came first the chicken or the egg. Obviously, you miss the point and cry inconsistency. It's non sense.

I mean your website has lists and lists of things like this;

GE 4:16 Cain went away (or out) from the presence of the Lord.
JE 23:23-24 A man cannot hide from God. God fills heaven and earth.

Really? Sorry, that is really reaching to find fault with something and once again missing the point!!!!

If these are the things that truly caused you to become an atheist, you must struggle in this life and find it unbearable when human beings find different ways to describe things.

. . . but Joe, you described the sky as blue, now you are calling it grey, you contradict yourself you liar! <sigh>