clear challenges to the trinity doctrine

[tigger2]

CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

"trinity ...1. [cap.] Theol. The union of three persons or hypostases (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons or hypostases as to individuality. 2. Any symbol of the Trinity in art. 3. Any union of three in one; a triad; as the Hindu trinity, or Trimurti." - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, G. & C. Merriam Co., 1961. (underlined emphasis added by me.)
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Athanasian Creed:

"And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other, none is greater or less than others; but the whole three persons are co- eternal together; and co-equal. So that in all things as is aforesaid: the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

"HE THEREFORE THAT WILL BE SAVED MUST THUS THINK OF THE TRINITY."
....................................................
"Trinity, the Most Holy

"The most sublime mystery of the Christian faith is this: 'God is absolutely one in nature and essence, and relatively three in Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who are really distinct from each other." - p. 584, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Thomas Nelson, Inc., Publishers, 1976.
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The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
"1. The Term 'Trinity':
"The term "Trinity" is not a Biblical term, and we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence." - p. 3012, Vol. IV, Eerdmans, 1984.

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Clear Challenges from scripture itself:

(A) Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is visibly shown as more than one person.

(This is really not that difficult. Either there is a vision, dream, description, etc. somewhere in scripture clearly visibly showing the one God as three persons or there isn't. Either way, it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
………………………………............

(B) Please show where in scripture God is ever described using the word "three."

(Either God is described somewhere in scripture using the word "three" or its clear equivalent (just as He is clearly and frequently described with the word “one� or its equivalent - “alone,� “only,� etc. ), or He is not. Either way it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
……………………………….............

(C) Please find clear, direct, undisputed statements (equivalent to “Jesus is the Christ� or "YHWH is God" which are found repeatedly in clear, undisputed scriptures) which declare:

“YHWH is the Son,� or “YHWH is the Firstborn,� or, “YHWH is the Messiah (or ‘Christ’),� or any other equally clear, undisputed statement that “Jesus is YHWH� (the only God according to scripture).
……………………………….................

Since the Father is clearly, directly, and indisputably called "God, the Father," many, many times, and the Son and Holy Spirit are said by trinitarians to be equally the one God (in ‘three distinct persons’):

(D) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures where Jesus is called "God, the Son," (equal to those which declare "God, the Father" – Ro. 15:6; 1 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; 2 Cor. 11:31; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:2; etc.)

and,
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(E) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures (such as "God, the Father") where the Holy Spirit is called "God, the Holy Spirit."
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(F) If Jesus and/or the first century Christians (considered a sect of Judaism at that time) truly believed that Jesus was God, how could they possibly be allowed to teach in the temple and synagogues as they were? (This not only would not have been allowed, but the Jews would have stoned them to death.)
………………………………...................

(G) If John truly believed a stunning new essential ‘knowledge’ of God that Jesus is equally God, why would he summarize and conclude his Gospel with, “But these [the Gospel of John] are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God…�

……………………………….................

(H) When the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were attempting to gather evidence to kill Jesus, why did they have to hire false witnesses? And why did these same priests and false witnesses never say that Jesus believed (or taught) that he was God? Instead the high priest finally said to Jesus: “Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.� - Matt. 26:59-63 NIV.

Obviously these officials had never heard anyone accuse Jesus or his followers of claiming that Jesus was God!

I believe any objective observer would admit that the answers to these simple scriptural challenges (A-H above) should be abundantly, clearly, indisputably available if the trinity (or ‘Jesus is God’) worshipers are correct.

To look for rare instances of unclear, disputed scriptures which have to be interpreted to fit a trinitarian concept (developed after the death of the last Apostle and the completion of Scripture) and convince yourself that they are "proofs" seems to me to be a tragic error.

God has always existed as God and, therefore, His people should have always known who He was and worshiped him in truth.

To believe that God withheld this information from his people (or made it something to be interpreted from unclear references) from the beginning (and throughout all Scriptures) seems to be a tragic error.

[polonius]

tigger 2 posted:

"The most sublime mystery of the Christian faith is this: 'God is absolutely one in nature and essence, and relatively three in Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who are really distinct from each other." - p. 584, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Thomas Nelson, Inc., Publishers, 1976.

QUESTIONS:

(1) If distinct, how exactly do they differ?

(2) But if they differ, they cannot be really co-equal because one possesses what the other two lack.

[101G]

GINOLJC, TO ALL

these scriptures should settle the question quickly about the Godhead.


QUESTION: "Who made and created all things?". this is a simple and straight forward question. let the bible answer.

Verse #1. Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself".

here clearly, it's the "LORD" all caps who made everything, by himself, alone. NOT through, or by anyone else. read the verse again if need be for clarity.

Verse #2 John 1:3 "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made".

if this is not the same PERSON, then there is a contradiction

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 32 by 101G]

"Through (dia) him God made all things" John 1:3 (GNT)
"all things were created by (dia) him" Col 1:16b (KJV)

The Greek word employed both in John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16(c) is "dia" "dia" (διά). According to STRONG'S #1223 DIA is {quote} "a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act". Strong's offers a variety of english prepositions for dia, such as: by, for (cause), in, of, by reason of etc. Most English translations favor the less ambiguous "through" (over "by") which better communicates the notion of intermediate agency as per the root meaning of the word.

• See various translations
  http://biblehub.com/john/1-3.htm
  http://biblehub.com/colossians/1-16.htm

VARIOUS COMMENTARIES

• "[Dia: διά ] may be used as a "marker of instrumentality or circumstance whereby something is accomplished or effected, by, via, through ... [it] can also be a "marker of pers. agency, through, by" - A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG) page 225
  
  Theologian, Emil BRUNNER suggests that if Paul had wanted to identify Jesus as the Creator in Col 1:15-17, he would have employed the Greek word hUPO (by) used metaphorically in scripture to denote an action "under the power of", in this case, the initiator (compare Matthew 1:22; Matthew 2:15), stating: "...the world, it is true, was created THROUGH--DIA--the Son, but not BY--hUPO--the Son [...] The fact that between the Creator and the Creation there stands the Mediator of creation means that the world is an act of the freedom of God, that it does not proceed from the Logos." - "The Christian Doctrine of God." (Volume I), Emil BRUNNER, p. 308

FURTHER READING (dia)

1:16 Absence of "from" = CREATOR/initiator (the use of the prepositions)
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... s-116.html

Through DIA not by HUPO
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... -emil.html

dia
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... -post.html
http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebibl ... .htm#S1223

in him/through him
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... sions.html

Further reading : Who is Jesus Christ?
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2005681

RELATED POSTS

What was the role of Jesus in creation?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 13#p864013

[101G]

[Replying to post 32 by 101G]

"Through (dia) him God made all things" John 1:3 (GNT)
"all things were created by (dia) him" Col 1:16b (KJV)

The Greek word employed both in John 1:3 and Colossians 1:16(c) is "dia" "dia" (διά). According to STRONG'S #1223 DIA is {quote} "a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act". Strong's offers a variety of english prepositions for dia, such as: by, for (cause), in, of, by reason of etc. Most English translations favor the less ambiguous "through" (over "by") which better communicates the notion of intermediate agency as per the root meaning of the word.

• See various translations
  http://biblehub.com/john/1-3.htm
  http://biblehub.com/colossians/1-16.htm

VARIOUS COMMENTARIES

• "[Dia: διά ] may be used as a "marker of instrumentality or circumstance whereby something is accomplished or effected, by, via, through ... [it] can also be a "marker of pers. agency, through, by" - A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (BDAG) page 225
  
  Theologian, Emil BRUNNER suggests that if Paul had wanted to identify Jesus as the Creator in Col 1:15-17, he would have employed the Greek word hUPO (by) used metaphorically in scripture to denote an action "under the power of", in this case, the initiator (compare Matthew 1:22; Matthew 2:15), stating: "...the world, it is true, was created THROUGH--DIA--the Son, but not BY--hUPO--the Son [...] The fact that between the Creator and the Creation there stands the Mediator of creation means that the world is an act of the freedom of God, that it does not proceed from the Logos." - "The Christian Doctrine of God." (Volume I), Emil BRUNNER, p. 308

FURTHER READING (dia)

1:16 Absence of "from" = CREATOR/initiator (the use of the prepositions)
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... s-116.html

Through DIA not by HUPO
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... -emil.html

dia
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... -post.html
http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebibl ... .htm#S1223

in him/through him
https://fosterheologicalreflections.blo ... sions.html

Further reading : Who is Jesus Christ?
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2005681

RELATED POSTS

What was the role of Jesus in creation?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 013#864013

first thanks for the response.

but I must disagree, here's why, Isaiah 44:24 "Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Isaiah said, he was alone, by himself, meaning, NOT through, nor with someone else. I suggest you read the verse again.

[101G]

If one Google the phrase, “by myself�. it’s rendered, by oneself
phrase of “by oneself�

1. alone. synonyms: alone, on one's own, singly, separately, solitarily, unaccompanied, companionless, unattended, unescorted, solo; informalby one's lonesome
"sitting in a room by oneself"

2. unaided. synonyms: unassisted, without help, by one's own efforts, under one's own steam, independently, single-handed, single-handedly,
"the patient often learns to undress by himself"

[JehovahsWitness]

first thanks for the response.

You a most welcome.

Here is the link for Isaiah 44:24
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 008#864008

Have a good weekend,

JW

[AdHoc]

Isn't it interesting how no one has answered any of the OP's literal challenges? Throwing out the same old trinity 'proofs' doesn't answer any of them.

Here's some other proofs:

Titus 2:2
"Looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour, Christ Jesus."

Hebrews 1:8 "But to the Son He says, 'Thy throne O God, is forever and ever'"

Isaiah 9:6 "For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."

Now someone might say that He's just a god. That's an illogical Christian belief for lots of reasons but here is perhaps the most devastating argument against that assertion:

According to scripture is there another God? Is there another Rock?

Here's what God says through the prophet Isaiah in 44:6 and 8

"Thus says the LORD (YHWH), the King of Israel and His Redeemer the LORD of Hosts, I am the First and I am the Last, and there is no God besides Me."

And in verse 8...

"Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it?

And you are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me, or is there any other Rock?

I know of none?"

[101G]

Isn't it interesting how no one has answered any of the OP's literal challenges? Throwing out the same old trinity 'proofs' doesn't answer any of them.

Here's some other proofs:

Titus 2:2
"Looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour, Christ Jesus."

Hebrews 1:8 "But to the Son He says, 'Thy throne O God, is forever and ever'"

Isaiah 9:6 "For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace."

Now someone might say that He's just a god. That's an illogical Christian belief for lots of reasons but here is perhaps the most devastating argument against that assertion:

According to scripture is there another God? Is there another Rock?

Here's what God says through the prophet Isaiah in 44:6 and 8

"Thus says the LORD (YHWH), the King of Israel and His Redeemer the LORD of Hosts, I am the First and I am the Last, and there is no God besides Me."

And in verse 8...

"Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it?

And you are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me, or is there any other Rock?

I know of none?"

first thanks for the post, there are some "VERY", and I mean some "VERY" interesting statements you made. let's look at these one at a time.

#1. you quoted, Titus 2:2 "Looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour, Christ Jesus."

this is a true scripture. many have been fooled into thinking that Jesus is not the Messiah, because he didn't save the people from Roman occupation, nor as some said, "he couldn't even save himself". this is their mistake, the Lord Jesus came to save them and us from our "SINS", which is a Spiritual deliverance, NOT a physical deliverance.

the scriptures clearly states that Jesus is the "ONLY" Saviour of men lives, who is God, supporting scripture, Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour".
No mere man can save another man life, only God can do that. scripture, Isaiah 35:4 "Say to them that are of a fearful heart, Be strong, fear not: behold, your God will come with vengeance, even God with a recompence; he will come and save you".

this Isaiah verse just confirmed the apostle Paul Titus 2:2 scripture you quoted,"Looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour, Christ Jesus."
here are the takeaways. A. in Isaiah and in Titus the one who is Saviour is GOD himself. so without a doubt the Saviour is GOD, and Jesus is the Saviour.

B. Isaiah 35:4 said that GOD is coming to save, so who shows up? JESUS, he is God in Flesh as a man. which bring us to,

point #2. you asked, "According to scripture is there another God? Is there another Rock? ". this is an "GREAT" question, you are so close to the truth.

instead of "ANOTHER" as in separate PERSONS, consider this. in the Greek there is a word, or may I say two words that describe our English word "ANOTHER" as in concering our topic. it's the Greek words, G243 allos, and G2087 heteros. I'm using the Vine dictionary. and here is what it says.

[ 1,,G243 G2087 ,allos heteros ] have a difference in meaning, which despite a tendency to be lost, is to be observed in numerous passages. Allos expresses a numerical difference and denotes another of the same sort;" heteros expresses a qualitative difference and denotes "another of a different sort."

let's look at the differences and understand our topic. G243 allos expresses a numerical difference, STOP, a "numerical difference" means 1 2 .. ect. or another ONE, BUT NOTICE, "of the SAME SORT". other words two of the SAME of one self. how can this be?. the answer, the sharing of oneself, whom God is Spirit.

let me make it clear. it is only the Spirit in the the Godhead. LORD and God = Spirit without flesh, OT. Title, "Father, but with the Appellation CREATOR, and MAKER of ALL THINGS.
Now, SAME Spirit, shared in flesh, Lord God, = Spirit shared in flesh, or as the bible say "ANOTHER" of oneself, or the "OFFSPRING", which is also known as the "diversity" of God in flesh (the ANOTHER of GOD). holding the Title, Son, with the Appellation, SAVIOUR and REDEEMER. let's see it in definition.
the term "OFFSPRING" according to Mickelson's Enhanced Strong's Dictionaries of the Greek and Hebrew Testaments, means,
G1085 γένος genos (ǰe'-nos) n.
kin.
{abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective}
[from G1096]
KJV: born, country(-man), diversity, generation, kind(-red), nation, offspring, stock

see, offspring means "kin", or kinsfolk, or kind, (God came in flesh as a man), which makes him our Kinsman Redeemer, who is SAVIOUR, because God is shared in flesh.

so, not "ANOTHER" separate person, but a "SHARED" ANOTHER of the Same "SORT". for the definition of G243 allos states, "another" of the same sort, and sort here means in the same class, same group, same category, and the same kind. meaning the God kind, the God Group, the God class. the scripture at Phil 2:6 makes this very clear. " Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God".

now, is there a problem there? meaning JESUS is equal "WITH" GOD the Spirit? let's see. Isaiah 40:25 "To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One". or this, Isaiah 46:5 "To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?"

the answer to all of those scripture, THERE IS NO ONE HIS EQUAL. but Phil 2:6 clearly states that JESUS is "EQUAL" with, not "TO", but equal "WITH" God, is indicating "ANOTHER" of himself as the numerical difference as G243 allos states, but the "SAME" sort. simply put JESUS the equal SHARE of HIMSELF in flesh. that's why John 1:3 do not clash with Isaiah 44:24, because it's the same PERSON, shared numerically in flesh. supportive scripture, Revelation 22:16 "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star".

the "OFFSPRING" is the "and" to the "ROOT". how simple. he's the "First, the ROOT, and the Last the OFFSPRING. THE "SAME" person, only SHARED in flesh.

so the conclusion is this: God is a Spirit shared in flesh as a man. it's just that simple. knowing this, it answers any and all hard questions about God and clear up any scripture concering the "Father" and the Son" as ONE.

[2timothy316]

Ad Hoc:

"The rich young ruler was trying to live a perfect life and Jesus shot him down before he even got going with "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone". You are inferring that He is saying He isn't good but that's an assumption. Clearly the bible teaches that Jesus is good and so if Jesus is good then He is God."

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T2:
Jesus made it very clear that no one is GOOD (agathos) except God. - Mark 10:18. But see Acts 11:24. Barnabas is a GOOD (agathos) person! If Jesus can say, when he was called a GOOD teacher, "Don't call me good (agathos) because only GOD is GOOD!" (Mark 10:18), then, 'obviously,' the inspired Bible writer is proclaiming at Acts 11:24 that Barnabas is GOD! Paul also clearly states this truth when he says to the brothers: "ye also are FULL OF GOODNESS, filled with all knowledge...." - Rom. 15:14. If no one but God is good and Jesus' body of brothers is GOOD ....

Good point. And why was Barnabas "a good man"? Jesus commanded us to be perfect just as our Heavenly Father is perfect. I think the clue to unlock that secret is in the scripture you quoted.

Yes, perfect needs to be understood. My previous post I said Jesus didn't hold the quality of good. 'Quality' needs explanation, and I see now it wasn't really what I wanted to covey. Jesus didn't want the title of 'good teacher'. Jesus is good and he is a teacher. It seems though that the way the Scribes used the term 'Good Teacher' was to imply that they had final say where all truth came from. Jesus, hated that title and didn't what it placed on him. John 14:28 Jesus said, 'The Father is greater than I". This means that Jesus' Father, Jehovah (Ps 83:18) is the only true 'Good Teacher'. In fact since Jehovah is greater than Jesus, Jehovah can be considered that ultimate "Good" of everything. There is no one is perfect like Jesus' Father, Jehovah. He is the source of perfection. These means that a human can be a perfect human and Jesus can be a perfect human and Son. Yet Jesus is not the source of all perfection, Jesus came from perfection.

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Ad Hoc:
"Jesus said 'before Abraham was I am'. Jesus would've known that this would've been an extremely offensive thing to say to the Pharisees who would never accept Him as their God. 'I am' is seen now (and then) as a reference to God's Holy name I AM WHO I AM or I AM.

"That it was clearly a reference to God's holy name is evidenced by the fact that they immediately picked up stones to kill Him after he said those words."

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T2:
The words ego eimi ('I Am') formed a phrase that was in very common use by first century Christians and Jews and in New Testament scriptures (just as it is in English today). It was certainly not understood (by Jews or Christians) as declaring one’s Godhood! If it could have been understood that way, we can be sure the Jews would have never applied it to themselves (as they did so frequently)!

And yet the Pharasees, who denied that Jesus was God, took up stones to kill Him...

The ex-blind man, when actually identifying himself, said “ego eimi� ("I Am"), but none of the other Jews present, even for a moment, understood him to be claiming to be God! And, of course, no one attempted to stone him! - John 9:9. Also Acts 26:29 and more.

Did the blind man say "Before Abraham was I am"?

I realize Jesus didn't say "Before Abraham was YHWH". I'd be interested to hear your explanation of His statement because it seemed to have a drastic effect on the Pharasees. To them He wasn't simply saying He was born before Abraham because they didn't start picking up rocks when He said that Abraham rejoiced to see His day.

If we think about what Jesus was saying, up to that time there had been no human prophet that lived before they were human. Jesus was the first and only one to be sent to earth this way. The Jews were expecting something else and what they were expecting wasn't scriptural. Jesus even told them many times, 'you don't know the scriptures'. They didn't expect a simple, humble man.

Isn't it interesting how no one has answered any of the OP's literal challenges? Throwing out the same old trinity 'proofs' doesn't answer any of them.

It's also interesting to characterize your respondents as "throwing out the same old trinity 'proofs'"

Is this an effective engagement strategy and does newness increase truth?

What does increase truth but the Bible? Those 'same ol' proofs' are still proofs, age doesn't matter. In fact the 'proofs' there is no trinity were there before the trinity was first spoken or even thought of.

[101G]

GINOLJC, to all.

in reference to some questions that was brought up, easy can they be answered.

#1. "no one is Good except God". my question, is Jesus bad?, of course not. read the context of the scripture. yes Joseph was a Good man, Luke 23:50. as said many men was Good. God is the source of Good, not men, but men can be good because of God.

#2. "the Father is Greater than I". this is so easy, quality or quantity. is the Servant greater that his master?..... John 14:12 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father". so is any man "GREATER" than our Lord Jesus?, not in the context as one is thinking about "Greater". context, context.

#3. "before Abraham was I am". this is a dead give away as to who the Lord Jesus is. . listen to the OT first then the NT.

OT, Isaiah 52:6 "Therefore my people shall know my name: therefore they shall know in that day that I am he that doth speak: behold, it is I".

so when, (what Day did God say this?). John 8:24 "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins".

there he is "I am he". he spoke to us in the OT plain and clear, and in the NT where there is no doubt.

the same "I AM HE" in the OT is the SAME "I AM HE" in the NT.

Peace in Christ Jesus.