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Replying to post 22 by JehovahsWitness]
I am not contesting the cases are not genuine I am contesting that independently, humans are not qualified to say if their source is benevolent or not.
This argues against the idea that humans have the knowledge of good and evil and are able to tell the difference. You are stating humans are 'not qualified' to say either way.
This of course couples in with my argument that such a position has painted itself into a corner because they are not qualified to say if their own faith in their source is benevolent or not. One cannot have their cake and eat it too.
I think they probably really happened and are entirly GENUINE. The question is WHO made them happen and why.
But is that the question? Why would that have to be a question if, as you claim, 'humans are not qualified to say if their source is benevolent or not'?
Being a genuine real event only proves spirits are genuine and real.
Apparently it also proves that human being are also 'spirits' albeit incarcerated in biological forms and most naturally identifying themselves AS those flesh devices.
Logically if the are intelligent free moral agents, some would be good and some would be bad.
In relation to Astral Projectionists there are indeed dark and light spirits, most often regarded as humans who have lived on earth, but also there are other being which did not.
In relation to Jeff Olsen's witness to do with that;
✡ In the horror of the situation he suddenly felt calmness
According to the so-called Jehovah's Witness, Jeff is not qualified to say if his source is benevolent or not...
✡ He felt he was surrounded a tangible light and that the light seemed alive and
comforted him.
According to the bible Jesus spoke of the Hold Ghost as 'the comforter'.
According to the so-called Jehovah's Witness, Jeff is not qualified to say if his source is benevolent or not...and that it could have been a demon PRETENDING to be the comforter...
✡ He rose above the scene of carnage and was joined by his wife.
According to the so-called Jehovah's Witness, Jeff is not qualified to say if his source was actually his wife of not.
✡ He was relieved. But his wife was telling him that he had to go back. He felt that
he had a choice to go back or to stay.
According to the so-called Jehovah's Witness, Jeff is not qualified to say if his source was actually benevolent or not in regard to what he was being told.
✡ As soon as he made the conscious thought that he was going back, he found himself wandering around in a hospital.
✡ Everyone he encountered in that state at the hospital, he felt he 'knew them all perfectly' as if he was connected to all of them on that intimate level. He felt like he was 'them' and there was a 'Oneness' - connection. (Panentheism).
According to the so-called Jehovah's Witness, Jeff is not qualified to say if his perceptions outside of the restriction of the flesh were benevolent or not, even that Jeff plainly describes the event as benevolent and eye-opening for that.
Humans, who can't even see them let alone tell what they have been up to while away from their presence, simply cannot access enough relevant information to judge the motives and character of the spirit they are dealing with.
If this is actually the case,
again this
has to apply to ALL such alternate encounters, including biblical ones. Otherwise, as I have shown, it is a case of wanting ones cake and to eat it too...what is good for the goose has to be good for the gander, all things being equal.
Indeed, those who have had NDEs and those who study those who have NDEs show plainly that they have more information than the so-called Jehovah's Witness has, in relation to this subject.
That effectively makes them more 'expert' than the so-called Jehovah's Witness.
Which goes back to my saying;
Are these people's experiences - including my own OOBE - trumped by the doctrines of the JW organization or indeed Christianity in general, simply because they decide that the experiences 'could be entities which are demons PRETENDING to be Jesus/GOD/The Holy Ghost etc?
No, they are not.
Questions for those who are Judaist, Christian or Muslim, are;
OPQ;
2: In relation to other faiths, where people encounter similar experiences, how does that stand in relation to your own faith in your own particular beliefs re the group/denomination you invest in?
This is not a partisan issue, demons are active in all the world's religions.
Do you have anything to back up that claim?
How is one to know that, given one's argument is that humans are not qualified to say if their source is benevolent or not?
Taking your own religion as something which the reader can assume you would be most intimate with, please tell us wherein the so'named Jehovah's Witness religion "demons are active". That would be a start, yes?
They know that religious folk are already open to the existence of spirits...
Well - after all 'GOD' is spirit. If one were not open to that, one wouldn't be a theist.
...and all religions have have individuals that testify to some kind of contact with unseen forces.
Yes they do. It goes with the territory. It is simply unavoidable.
Evangelists (that are not pranksters being thrown tonthe ground and speaking in tongues, miraculous visions and healings...
So yes - we understand that such things are attached to the works of the Holy Ghost (spirit) which some also suggest is how Jesus managed to do his miracles... in what way does this authorize a member of a small sect to claim being the witness of Jehovah and in that, claim that such things are the work of DEMONS?
There are all sorts of paranormal experiences in many eastern religions from Guru levitation to miracles and visions....
Jesus levitated, performed miracle and had visions. How is it that this is all good and above board with one religion but all others must be under the influence of DEMONS?
Now, I understand the competitiveness of immature religious assumption and how this leads to claims the competition is being deceived/deceiving. LORD knows the JW organization also suffered from mainstream Christianity accusing them of being 'under the influence' way back when they were regarded as nothing more than a 'cult'...but times change and if thousands of years of unproven superstitious nonsense design by and large to discredit the competition cannot be seen for what it is and expelled from the dogma, how is that helpful?
How do Jeff Olsen and hundreds of others who have experienced NDEs and bravely shared these with the world (or those who care to hear at least) supposed to feel when such accusations involving DEMONS etc are used to 'explain' to them that what they experienced is false and a product of deception by unclean/evil spirits who for some unknown reason have the ability to PRETEND to be - well - GODLIKE...Jesus, The Holy Ghost, Angels et al?
Also, how is it that the many images created by artists supporting your particular organised religion are renditions of 'the spirit realm' but regarded as true when those who have
first hand experience of such realms are regarded as false?
Please explain this apparent double standard to the reader.
Demons know human nature and they know if they are to dupe a religious person they will say they are [fill in the name particular religious icon] and possible say be bathed in light while they do it. If the person is non religious they are more usually more drawn in by the mysterious and the occult as well as curiosity about the paranormal.
You need to involve yourself in more study on this. By most accounts, it is as Dr. Bruce Greyson stated in the video.
✡ The phenomena is the same re going through a long dark space to get to a light, although different cultures explain this in different ways using different metaphors.
and
✡The interpretation of the experience may vary from one culture to another but the basic experience is the same over the centuries and around the globe.
and
✡ Interpretations of NDEs may be influenced by culture but the basic experience is not determined by ones culture.
Most people they know are emotionally vulnerable when grieving so they may draw people that would never have considered such things following the death of a loved one.
Again your reasoning
obviously has more to do with wanting to uphold your organizations beliefs than it is about the facts re NDEs.
As Dr. Greyson stated in the video...( I am assuming you did not watch the video as you should have picked up on this)
Dramatic increases in;
✡ Spirituality
✡ Compassion and concern for others
✡ Appreciation for life
✡ Sense of meaning and purpose
✡ Confidence and flexibility in coping with the stressful.
✡ Belief in survival after death
These things, while COMFORTING (See 'Holy Ghost') are not having the effect one would assume DEMONS would want - given demons are dark and dingy and apparently feed off negative emotions...
Also;
Decreases after NDE;
✡ Decrease or absence of fear of death
✡ Interest in material possessions
✡ Interest in personal status
✡ Competitiveness (more interest in cooperation and altruistic activities)
Again, positive energies which are more suited to Angelic Agenda than Demonic. So your claim that these are the work of demons deceiving emotionally vulnerable humans when grieving so the demons may draw people that would never have considered such things following the death of a loved one, are at odds with the actual evidence.
The evidence speaks for itself that the belief PRETENDING DEMONS are behind NDEs etc is superfluous.
Claiming humans simply can't tell the difference is clutching at straws for the purpose of maintaining superstitious beliefs which enable one to uphold ones preferred position and world views. As the reader can verify, there are some very large holes in your arguments re your beliefs.
In short there are a thousand different ways for a demon to dupe honest, innocent rational non-religious, atheist or religious person
Indeed?
Going back to the first and second videos I linked of personal testimony regarding the Atheist girl , it is understandable that she gravitated towards the denomination which had prayed for her and became a Christian.
I say and would think also that Dr. Greyson and many other sensible thinkers would agree that this would stand to reason, as well as with the case of the lady who was formerly a member of the Jehovahs Witness sect of Christianity... after all, in her state she cried out to Jehovah and he answered her by giving her a vision of a member of the Pentecostal sect whom the lady thought of as - well the same as you obviously think of them - but in her desperation she laid aside her JW beliefs as best she could, and did what was asked of her and she was healed of her affliction and
comforted. According to your argument calling on the name of Jehovah doesn't guarantee that demons are not going to answer!!! and that demons also are able to do the job of the Holy Ghost!!!!
But again, it is only natural that the woman would join with the denomination which Jehovah had used to help the process to heal and comfort her. But you imply through your beliefs that someone who you might have once regarded as a sister in GOD - is someone now 'deceived by demons'
because the results were that she no longer believes what the JW organisation told her, as she experienced first hand something which showed her that what the JW organisation told her, was not actually the case???!!! AND you want the reader to agree that your argument is acceptable?
